Official Report * Table of Contents * Number 070 (Official Version)

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Orders 104 and 114, I have the honour to present, in both official languages, the 13th report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs regarding the membership of the committees of the House. If the House gives its consent, I intend to move concurrence in the 13th report later today.

* * *

Leif Erikson Day Act

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Peter Julian (Burnaby—New Westminster, NDP)

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-387, An Act to establish Leif Erikson Day.

He said: Mr. Speaker, as is well known, Canada has been greatly enriched by the contributions of Canadians who have come from Scandinavian countries such as Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark and Iceland. They have settled across the country and have helped to build the Canada we know today. We celebrate that diversity.

My bill would create a Leif Erikson day on October 9. It would honour the contributions of those hundreds of thousands of Canadians of Scandinavian origin who, from coast to coast to coast, have contributed to the growth and building of this nation.

In other countries of the world, such as the United States, October 9 is already seen as Leif Erikson day, a day to honour the contribution of those of Scandinavian heritage who have settled in those countries. I believe very strongly that the petitions that have been submitted in the House from the thousands of people across the country who support this bill also attest to the importance of that honouring.

I introduce this bill to establish October 9 as Leif Erikson day in Canada. I hope it will receive support from both sides of the House.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

* * *

Financial System Review Act

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Peter Van Loan (for the Minister of Finance)

moved that Bill S-5, An Act to amend the law governing financial institutions and to provide for related and consequential matters, be read the first time.

(Motion deemed adopted and bill read the first time)

* * *

Committees of the House

Procedure and House Affairs

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Joe Preston (Elgin—Middlesex—London, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, if the House gives its consent, I move that the 13th report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs presented to the House earlier today be concurred in.

The Speaker: Does the hon. member have the unanimous consent of the House to propose the motion?

Some hon. members: Agreed.

The Speaker: The House has heard the terms of the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Some hon. members: Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

* * *

Petitions

Multiple Sclerosis

[Table of Contents]

Ms. Kirsty Duncan (Etobicoke North, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to present this petition regarding CCSVI. International data suggest that one-third of MS patients significantly improve following the procedure, one-third moderately improve and one-third show no to little improvement. Regardless, no drugs have ever reversed the symptoms of devastating MS. We have studies from Argentina, Britain, the United States, et cetera, that show a significant improvement in quality of life. We have peer reviewed literature, presentations from eight international conferences, as well as reports from returning Canadian MS patients treated outside Canada.

The petitioners are calling on the Minister of Health to consult experts actively engaged in diagnosis and treatment of CCSVI to undertake phase III clinical trials on an urgent basis in multiple centres across Canada and to require follow-up care.

* * *

Electro-Motive Diesel

[Table of Contents]

Ms. Irene Mathyssen (London—Fanshawe, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, I have a petition from the workers and members of the community of London in regard to the lockout at Electro-Motive Diesel in London, Ontario.

This is the 30th day of the strike and the company, Progress Rail, has demanded a reduction of 50% in terms of wages, benefits and pensions. Despite the fact that it made $1.14 billion in profits, an increase of 60% in just the last quarter, it is demanding that its workers take these crushing reductions.

The workers and their families ask the Parliament of Canada to investigate the conditions of sale of Electro-Motive to Progress Rail, to investigate the bad faith bargaining of Progress Rail in regard to contract negotiations, and to award employment insurance benefits to locked out workers. There is a precedent for this.

I would ask that parliamentarians consider the fate of these workers and the impact it will have on all of the London community.

* * *

(1010)

The Environment

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Michael Chong (Wellington—Halton Hills, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, I present a petition to the House of Commons on the Canadian interfaith call for leadership and action on climate change. It is signed by 150 residents of my riding of Wellington—Halton Hills from communities like Elora, Fergus, Erin, Orton and places like Hillsburgh as well.

The petitioners are calling on the government to do three things: one, to work toward a new international agreement to replace the Kyoto protocol that binds all nations to a new set of carbon reduction targets; two, to establish a national target within Canada that we ourselves can achieve; and three, to play a constructive role internationally to fund climate mitigation efforts around the world.

I note that all three things the petitioners are calling for are consistent with the Government of Canada's goals in this regard.

[Table of Contents]

Ms. Elizabeth May (Saanich—Gulf Islands, GP):

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Wellington—Halton Hills for presenting a very important petition relating to the same topic as the petition I am presenting. This petition comes from residents of British Columbia, primarily from Williams Lake, Comox, Victoria, 100 Mile House, Quesnel, and also a number of residents of Red Deer and Medicine Hat, Alberta.

The petition calls on the government to recognize the evidence that has been presented and prepared by the National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy of the fact that not responding to the climate crisis will result in significant costs to the economy of Canada year on year. According to the national round table, the costs of not responding to the climate crisis will be $5 billion per year by 2020, and between $21 billion and $43 billion by 2050 every year. These are costs to the economy, but there are also costs to communities and the environment.

The petitioners therefore petition the Government of Canada, in the interests of Canada's long-term prosperity, to recognize the important role of a stable climate and to agree to a national climate strategy that will set in a transparent way the targets that are required by science. They are specified in the petition as carbon dioxide reductions of 25% below 1990 levels by 2020, followed by an 80% reduction against 1990 levels by 2050.

* * *

Visitor Visas

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Peter Julian (Burnaby—New Westminster, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to present a petition on behalf of hundreds of residents of British Columbia including throughout the Lower Mainland, and residents of the Edmonton and Calgary areas of Alberta.

The petitioners ask the government to look at waiving visa requirements for Serbian visitors to Canada. The Serbian community is very strong and has been present in Canada since Confederation. Over 100,000 Canadians of Serb origin make an enormous contribution to Canada. Twenty-nine European states have waived visa requirements for Serbia. There is a very clear movement to provide visa-free travel from Serbia. This would certainly help to facilitate exchanges between Serbia and Canada and would greatly help the Serbian Canadian community.

On behalf of those hundreds of Canadian residents, I table this petition.

* * *

Questions on the Order Paper

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Tom Lukiwski (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, I ask that all questions be allowed to stand.

The Speaker: Is that agreed?

Some hon. members: Agreed.

* * *

Privilege

Legislation to Reorganize the Canadian Wheat Board--Speaker's Ruling

[Speaker's Ruling]

[Table of Contents]

The Speaker:

I am now prepared to rule on the question of privilege raised on December 8, 2011, by the member for Guelph in relation to proceedings on Bill C-18, An Act to reorganize the Canadian Wheat Board and to make consequential and related amendments to certain Acts.

[Translation]

I would like to thank the member for having raised this matter, as well as the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and the House Leader of the Official Opposition for their interventions.

[English]

In raising his concerns, the member for Guelph argued that the Federal Court finding on the actions of the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food and Minister for the Canadian Wheat Board in relation to Bill C-18 supported his claim that the manner in which the government managed proceedings on the bill violated his privileges as well as those of other members, and rendered the bill and therefore the House's consideration of it, illegal. Given the court's finding, he asked me as Speaker to reconsider the basis for my previous ruling of October 24, 2011 on this same matter, in which I reminded the House that it is the responsibility of the courts and not the Speaker to rule on legal matters.

(1015)

[Translation]

The Leader of the Government in the House of Commons stated that the decision of the court on this matter in no way limited Parliament's right and ability to legislate, and reminded the House of the undisputed principle that a previous Parliament cannot fetter a future one. Furthermore, he claimed that the House, having already made a decision on this bill, was no longer seized of this matter and, thus, had no jurisdiction to deal with it.

[English]

The member for Guelph argues that the decision rendered by the Federal Court has a bearing on the question of the correctness of our proceedings in relation to Bill C-18. He maintains that, despite the Chair having already answered the question in previous rulings, the court decision somehow creates new circumstances.

It is the view of the Chair that the fundamental issue remains unaltered; namely, that the member for Guelph is essentially still asking the Speaker to rule on a matter of law. This, as I have gone to great lengths to explain previously, is something the Speaker cannot do.

[Translation]

In my ruling of October 24, 2011, on page 2405 of the House of Commons Debates, I commented on a long-standing principle that has guided me and my predecessors on the Chair's role in interpreting constitutional and legal matters. I stated:

...it is important to delineate clearly between interpreting legal provisions of statutes—which is not within the purview of the Chair—and ensuring the soundness of the procedures and practices of the House when considering legislation—which, of course, is the role of the Chair.

[English]

At the same time, I reminded the House of Speaker Fraser's ruling of April 9, 1991, at pages 19233 and 19234 of the Debates, in which he declared that the Chair must avoid interpreting, even indirectly, the Constitution or a statute.

[Translation]

On April 12, 2005, at page 4953 of the House of Commons Debates, Speaker Milliken stated much the same thing when asked to rule on the admissibility of a bill that would have required him to interpret the constitutionality of a clause of proposed legislation. He stated at the time:

[English]

...the Speaker does not make rulings on matters of law; on parliamentary law perhaps, but not on the law of the Constitution or on other laws that affect us. The question of the interpretation of the section of the bill is one that would be determined by a court if the bill in fact becomes law. At the moment, it is a bill before Parliament and Speakers in the past have not ruled on the constitutionality or otherwise of clauses in a bill....Rulings of courts may chuck out some of the clauses that are adopted by this House in a bill, but that happens after the House has passed it and the Senate has passed it and it has received royal assent, because even the courts have no jurisdiction in the matter before.

[Translation]

In the same ruling, Speaker Milliken spelled out for the House the very limited kinds of legal and constitutional matters that Speakers may rule on when he stated:

What they may decide is whether the terms of a bill are in compliance with a prior resolution of this House, a ways and means motion, for example, or a royal recommendation in respect of a money bill, but beyond that, Speakers do not intervene in respect of the constitutionality or otherwise of provisions in the bills introduced in this House.

[English]

That the Federal Court granted a breach declaration regarding the actions of the minister with respect to the bill does not fundamentally change either the nature of the question being raised or the role of the Speaker in answering it. To find that the member was obstructed or interfered with in the performance of his duties because he participated in the legislative proceedings on a bill that was allegedly improperly before the House would require me to rule on the legality of the bill and this is simply outside the bounds of what can be considered by the Speaker.

Instead, just as I did in my ruling of October 24, 2011 on this same matter, I must again confine myself to the procedural aspects of the question. Now, as then, I can find no evidence to substantiate the member's claim that there has been an interference with members' ability to fulfill their parliamentary duties. As such, I cannot find that there is a prima facie question of privilege.

[Translation]

I thank all members for their attention.

Government Orders

[Government Orders]

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[English]

Pooled Registered Pension Plans Act

Bill C-25--Time Allocation Motion

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Peter Van Loan (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, CPC)

moved:

That, in relation to Bill C-25, An Act relating to pooled registered pension plans and making related amendments to other Acts, not more than two further sitting days shall be allotted to the consideration of the second reading stage of the bill; and

That, 15 minutes before the expiry of the time provided for government orders on the second day allotted to the consideration of the second reading stage of the said bill, any proceedings before the House shall be interrupted, if required for the purpose of this order, and, in turn, every question necessary for the disposal of the said stage of the bill shall be put forthwith and successively, without further debate or amendment.

Some hon. members: Shame.

(1020)

[Table of Contents]

The Speaker:

Pursuant to Standing Order 67.1 there will now be a 30 minute question period. If we can keep the questions and the responses close to a minute, we can accommodate many members.

I would like to remind the House that the Chair in the past has treated this period similar to question period, so a preference will be given to opposition members. However, government members will be accommodated a few times in the rotation.

I will open the floor now and I will recognize the hon. member for Hamilton Mountain.

[Table of Contents]

Ms. Chris Charlton (Hamilton Mountain, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, I would like to say that I am happy to rise in the House on this occasion, but I have to say this is an absolute disgrace. The bill that we only started to deal with in the House yesterday deals with the most fundamental question that is before Canadians today and that is pension reform.

The House will know that when the Prime Minister was in Davos, Switzerland he raised concerns among every single senior in this country who is now concerned about the future of his or her pension.

We have a bill before us in the House that proposes to amend how we deal with retirement income security for Canadian seniors. After only two NDP members spoke to it in the House, the government House leader rose yesterday and said that was enough debate. He said that he was tabling a motion for time allocation because the government had had enough of this and needed to invoke closure.

Nobody has had an opportunity to be consulted. Canadians deserve to be heard on this important bill. The minister should not be shutting down debate. He should be encouraging Canadians to participate. He should be encouraging people to be heard.

The Conservatives have moved time allocation 13 times since the election, 11 times since the House came back in September. There is absolutely no justification to move closure on a bill after only two speakers from the official opposition have had the opportunity to voice the concerns of their constituents.

The minister should not be shutting down the voices of Canadians. We need debate. I would ask him to reconsider this really ill-conceived motion.

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Peter Van Loan:

Madam Speaker, my friend has said that we need to give an opportunity to consult Canadians on this issue. I do not know where she was during the last election because that is in fact exactly what happened. This was an issue in the last election.

[Table of Contents]

Ms. Chris Charlton:

You did not mention it in the pension platform.

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Peter Van Loan:

Madam Speaker, I hear the member saying that we did not mention it in the last election. I will correct that. I will actually read from the platform of the Conservative Party in the last election. That platform says that a re-elected Conservative government “will work with our provincial and territorial partners to implement the pooled retirement pension plan as soon as possible in our next term of office.”

So, not only is it something that we put forward to Canadians, not only is it something that Canadians had a chance to debate thoroughly in the last election, not only is it something on which Canadians then gave us a majority mandate to move on, it is something we committed to implement as soon as possible.

The pooled registered pension plan is a vehicle that will create new alternatives for Canadians, new ways of saving for their retirement, especially those who are employed in small businesses or are self-employed, people who do not have the option right now of private pensions that larger employers have often offered in the past. We are creating new opportunities for people to save for their retirement.

Yet the opposition, notwithstanding Canadians having endorsed that in the last election, seems to think that is a bad idea and does not even want to make a decision on it. Those members just want the debate to go on perpetually. The debate took place in the last election. Canadians passed judgment. They elected us and gave us a mandate to implement it as soon as possible. That is what we are doing today.

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Marc Garneau (Westmount—Ville-Marie, Lib.):

Madam Speaker, if we listen very carefully to what the House leader just said, he said that because the Conservatives were elected last May, that is in fact a clear mandate for them to do anything they want without any debate whatsoever. That is the argument that the Conservatives brought forth last fall, throwing in the fact that they said they had to do things in a hurry.

We are not sure why this particular bill fits into that category. However, the fundamental point is that the House leader is telling us as long as they were elected and they talked about it in the election campaign, then they can go ahead and do this; that there does not have to be any debate. Is that the tone he is setting for this 41st Parliament? Is that the shot across the bow that is telling us that is the way we are going to do things for the next three and a half years?

(1025)

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Peter Van Loan:

Madam Speaker, the Liberal House leader has a very odd interpretation of what I said. In fact what I said is quite to the contrary. It is that having heard Canadians, having made commitments to them about what we would do, having received their endorsement that we should do that, we believe that we are not just permitted to but also, in a democracy, duty bound to carry out our commitments. I know that is a novel approach for Liberals who may say one thing during an election and do something very different afterwards.

Our belief is that when we make commitments to Canadians, when we tell them what we are going to do, we have to deliver on those commitments. We have to do what we told Canadians we would do. We will continue to do that in this government.

[Translation]

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Peter Julian (Burnaby—New Westminster, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, this is a sad day in the House of Commons, because it is the 14th time that the government has invoked closure. Fourteen times. As a result, the voices of ordinary people from across Canada are not being heard in the House of Commons. As we know, the government even invoked closure after 14 minutes of debate in one instance. It is unbelievable that the government is refusing to listen to the people who speak for Canadians and thwarting the democratic process in the House of Commons.

The government has to deal with another problem. Seniors across the country have reacted strongly to its hidden agenda. The government wants to cut old age security, and it does not want to provide the support that our public pension system needs. The government wants to cut short the debate to prevent people from hearing more extensive debate on the future of seniors' pensions.

My question is, why is the government so scared of seniors that it wants to shut down debate on pensions here in the House of Commons?

[English]

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Peter Van Loan:

Madam Speaker, there were so many inaccuracies in what the hon. member just said that I think I could take up the rest of the question period responding to them all.

First, he does not seem to understand parliamentary procedure. We have not invoked closure here. We are using a device called time allocation that allows for certainty in the debate process. It allows for debate to continue, but it ensures that we will actually make decisions.

I know their way is to delay interminably and prevent decisions from ever being made. That is why they kept moving motions to prevent previous bills from even going to second reading. We want to be able to make decisions. We think everyone in this House is entitled to vote.

Second, on the issue of what represents democracy, apparently he does not think an election where Canadians pass judgment represents democracy. We think that represents the highest level of democracy. Canadians have endorsed us and asked us to deliver on pooled registered pension plans, and to do so as soon as possible. We feel that is an important commitment to carry out, including the provision made to Canadians that we will do it as soon as possible. For that reason, I have to reject what he said.

Finally, in terms of what we are delivering here to Canadians, this is another option for saving for one's retirement. How the NDP could be opposed to creating vehicles for people to receive pensions, I do not comprehend, especially those who are self-employed or employed in smaller businesses and therefore cannot participate in larger pension plans.

Why is it that the New Democratic Party seems to think that is not fair, that it only thinks that those who are employed in big institutions should be entitled to pensions? We do not agree with that. We think there should be more options for people.

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Judy Sgro (York West, Lib.):

Madam Speaker, I have to try to keep calm. The House leader said that the Conservatives were elected. We were also elected. Our job here is democracy. We brag around the world that Canada is the background of democracy. The member has the audacity to suggest that a couple of hours of debate on something that is as important as the retirement plans of Canadians be subject to closure motion and time allocation.

It is a slap in the face to every Canadian. It is a slap in the face to all those people who look at Canada as a model of democracy. This is the 13th time since September that Conservatives have introduced time allocation or closure. It is absolutely a disgrace and an embarrassment to all of us as parliamentarians. On an issue as important as retirement, and when we all have ideas to make it better, the PRPP is only one option. There are many. Let us work together and not bring in closure so quickly.

(1030)

[Table of Contents]

The Deputy Speaker:

I would ask hon. members to keep their questions and comments to one minute so that all members get a chance to raise their points.

The hon. government House leader.

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Peter Van Loan:

Madam Speaker, it is important to understand that what we are discussing in the bill before us is the pooled registered pension plan. There may be many other issues surrounding retirement that are worthy of discussion. Our government is interested in discussing some of those to make sure that we have a sustainable system for the long term that supports people in their retirement.

However, the issue before us is the pooled registered pension plan. We think that there is a real obligation on a political party that makes a commitment to Canadians to deliver on something to actually do that when that party is elected. We were elected to do that and we are carrying through on that commitment.

Why is it that Canadians endorse the concept of the pooled registered pension plan? Because it creates new options for people to save for their retirement. People who previously have been denied the opportunity, who perhaps do not have large employers or access to private pension plans, would now like to be able to do this.

We have often heard about problems with portability, being able to move pensions when people move from employer to employer. The pooled registered pension plan creates that portability. Even if someone goes from being self-employed to being with a small employer, there are all kinds of options. That is why this is such a tremendous vehicle for workers.

[Table of Contents]

Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims (Newton—North Delta, NDP):

Madam Speaker, I am really disappointed. The hon. member across the way said democracy was elections. Elections are absolutely a part of a democratic process, but he forgot to mention that the other part of parliamentary democracy is for Parliament to debate. That does not mean that the governing side gets to decide on time allocation over and over again.

This is a fundamental issue that deserves a fulsome debate. Once again, the Conservatives are using bullying tactics to silence the voice of the opposition. They are using bullying tactics to silence debate in the House once again.

What are they afraid of? They have a majority and they can pass this legislation. My appeal to my colleague across the way is let the debate continue.

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Peter Van Loan:

Madam Speaker, we are almost halfway through this question period. I have answered a number of questions already. We are dealing with the question of the pooled registered pension plan. We are hearing about the importance of the debate. Yet not one speaker from the opposition has raised one issue, one question or referred in any substantial way to what pooled registered pension plans are and what they will do for Canadians.

The only person who is doing that right now is me. Why is it important for us to deal with this bill now? Because Canadians need those retirement options. They want them. They asked us to deliver them in the last election as soon as possible. We made that commitment to them. This is a vehicle that offers tremendous opportunities, as I said, for people who are looking to save for their retirement.

There are several different pillars. There is the Canada pension plan. There is old age security. There is the GIS. There are private pensions. The problem is that fewer and fewer Canadians have access to private pensions. That is why we need to create more opportunities for them. That is why we want to see this bill become law.

(1035)

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.):

Madam Speaker, I have news for the government House leader. The reason we are not dealing with the issues of the bill itself is that the government has chosen to once again bring in time allocation, preventing members in the House to participate in the debate and ask questions relevant to this particular bill. We are witnessing a government that uses closure through time allocation to prevent legitimate, healthy debate on important issues that are facing Canadians today. That includes dealing with the issue of pensions, which affects every Canadian across this land.

When will the government House leader do his job and start negotiating with the opposition and third party House leaders so we can have a better approach to dealing with legislation that is supposed to be debated as opposed to being rammed down the throats of Canadians?

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Peter Van Loan:

Madam Speaker, we talked about this in the last election. We talked about it with all Canadians. We had a debate. Canadians had an opportunity to hear what the different parties had to say and they decided to endorse the Conservative government with a majority mandate to work with our provincial and territorial partners to implement the pooled retirement pension plan as soon as possible in our next term of office. That is exactly what we are doing.

There is great support from the public, not just for the concept but for moving quickly. I can read comments by Dan Kelly with the Canadian Federation of Independent Business. What did he say about the pooled registered pension plans? He said, “This can't come soon enough from our perspective. We think this has great potential”. Why does the Canadian Federation of Independent Business think that? Because it represents small businesses, businesses that would love to be able to provide pensions for their employees but, due to the difficulties of large private pensions, cannot do it. This would provide them the opportunity to finally give their workers the opportunity for private pensions.

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Joe Comartin (Windsor—Tecumseh, NDP):

Madam Speaker, it is ironic to listen to the House leader on the government side stand in the chamber and accuse one of my colleagues of not understanding procedure. This debate is about time allocation and closure. It is not about Bill C-25. He should understand that.

With regard to that, he also stands in the House and repeatedly says that this is what Canadians voted for. The Conservatives promised repeatedly, in every single election since they have been both a minority government and in the run up to this majority government, that they would clean up the democratic process in the House. What have we seen? Fourteen times now they have invoked either closure or time allocation. What about those promises? Are they going to honour those or are they going to break those promises to the Canadian people to clean up the democracy in the House?

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Peter Van Loan:

Madam Speaker, it takes a highly academic approach to say that debating the process for dealing with the bill has nothing at all to do with the bill, that we should not talk about the bill or worry about the substance of it. Actually, the substance of the bill is the reason we need to move forward with it.

The fact is that we made a commitment to deliver. I do not understand why the New Democratic Party says, as the House leader says, that we should deny for every day possible the opportunity of this vehicle to Canadians. Why would it want to delay giving Canadians, self-employed and small businesses, the opportunity for their own private pension plan options? What benefit is there to Canadians in delaying that one day further? I do not understand the benefit of delaying that device for Canadians and yet this is exactly what the opposition is seeking to do.

He says that Canadians might understand it better. Apparently, he has contempt for what Canadians do when they decide how to vote in an election. We have a high regard for the intellect of Canadians. We think that when they made choices in the last election, they did so in an informed and intelligent fashion and we are delivering on the commitments we made to them.

[Translation]

[Table of Contents]

Mr. André Bellavance (Richmond—Arthabaska, BQ):

Madam Speaker, the thing that surprises me today is not the fact that the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and his government are moving closure in this Parliament for the 14th time. That does not surprise me because they have already made such a mockery of democracy here in this House. I am surprised that the Conservative government has not decided to shut down Parliament. The government House leader keeps saying they were given a mandate in the last election. They did indeed win that election, but does that give the Conservative government a blank cheque? Get real.

Roughly 38% of the people voted for the Conservative Party, but many others did not. We are meant to have discussions in Parliament. We are meant to have discussions and hold debates in committees. We represent the entire population, those who voted and those who did not, and those who were not in Canada during the election. Regardless of what they did, whether they voted for the Conservatives or not, we owe it to the public to hold debates on important matters here in Parliament. I wonder where the government House leader gets the idea that they were given a blank cheque during the last election. He is misleading the House and the public when he says that.

(1040)

[English]

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Peter Van Loan:

Madam Speaker, it is not a blank cheque that Canadians gave us. They gave us a mandate to deliver on the commitments we made to them and to do what we said we would do.

There is enthusiastic support for it in the case of this pooled registered pension plan. For example, this is what the Canadian Chamber of Commerce said about pooled registered pension plans:

The Canadian Chamber of Commerce believes PRPPs...will give many businesses the flexibility and tools they need to help their employees save for retirement. PRPPs will also provide individuals and the self-employed with additional retirement savings options.

The opposition is making the case right now that we should delay them having those options. It is saying that we should not allow those pooled registered pension plans to be put in place and that we need to put that decision off for another day even further. I am saying that we should decide on that in principle this Wednesday with a vote.

I would like to know from the opposition what the case is for delaying pooled registered pension plans. Why is the opposition so determined to keep Canadians from having that option?

[Translation]

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Jean Rousseau (Compton—Stanstead, NDP):

Madam Speaker, I would like to remind the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons that this debate is about adjournment and time allocation. We could certainly discuss the bill, but it does not even require the employer to contribute to this pooled plan.

People are calling my office to tell me that they do not have a pension plan where they work. They are wondering what they will end up with if the employer does not contribute and who they will guarantee them a viable pension fund when they retire. Once again, the companies will grab the profits and go elsewhere. We never ensure that our workers receive what they are owed after working all their lives.

I would like to pose the following question to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons: what is the point of democracy if we are unable to talk to the people who elected us as their representatives in the House?

[English]

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Peter Van Loan:

Madam Speaker, while my friend says that employers might pocket the proceeds, under the pooled registered pensions plans, that is not a possibility. It simply cannot happen. That is the nature of a pooled registered pension plan. It is important that we provide this vehicle for those who are in small businesses or who are self-employed so they will be able to have access to it.

I do not hear any compelling argument from the members opposite for why this must be delayed. Why do we need to delay offering this option to Canadians? What we hear from a broad sector, the business sector, small businesses and even from provinces is that this is a good vehicle that they want us to get in place.

Why would we want to delay it any further? What is the benefit of delay and of not making a decision? This is something I have not yet heard articulated.

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Joe Preston (Elgin—Middlesex—London, CPC):

Madam Speaker, as a small businessman before I came here and knowing many back home who are still small businessmen, the pooled registered pension plan allows small business to do something it might otherwise not be able to do, which is provide a pension vehicle for employees and employers in small businesses.

The expertise in small business is incredible in Canada but not all small business owners are experts as far as pension planning goes. Many of them are very busy being the director of operations, the director of marketing, the snow shoveller or the trainer of their employees. This would allow those small businessmen and women to, through an expert administrator, put together a pension plan for employees who might otherwise not have one.

What I am being asked by small businessmen and employees in small businesses back home is why do we not get this done.

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Peter Van Loan:

Madam Speaker, the member for Elgin—Middlesex—London is quite right in that the ability to create a pension plan right now depends on a tremendous amount of resources. That is why only those who have worked for very large corporations and businesses in the past have had the opportunity to enjoy private pensions.

We are trying to create a device where, by pooling or putting resources together, small businesses or self-employed individuals will be able to establish the same opportunities to save for their retirement and enjoy a private pension. It is a very reasonable thing.

When we look at how our economy has changed, we see that more and more people are self-employed today than in the past. Again, more and more people are employed in smaller businesses and fewer are employed in those larger businesses. That is how the economy has changed.

We need to create devices that respond to those changes so that people have options to save for their retirement, those who are self-employed and those who are employed in small businesses. What is more, we want to do it in a way that they can also respond to the other change, that people often change employers many times. With portability, there is that option with the pooled registered pension plans.

(1045)

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Wayne Easter (Malpeque, Lib.):

Madam Speaker, one thing that is for certain under this particular regime, the House of Commons is becoming the house of closure, no question about it.

What is the real compelling reason that the House leader is invoking closure or time allocation? This chamber is always public but the track record of the government in committee is that when bills get to committee they are put in camera and the government tries to prevent a number of witnesses coming forward from the opposition members. Is that part of the reason, to take the debate out of the public arena and shove it to committee? Just in case that might be the case, would the House leader answer whether he would allow all the hearings in committee to be in public?

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Peter Van Loan:

Madam Speaker, we love this issue being debated in public. We love the proposal from the government of pooled registered pension plans being in public. We loved it so much that we made it part of the last election. We liked the idea so much that we put it in our platform and told Canadians that a re-elected Conservative government would work with our provincial and territorial partners to implement the pooled retirement pension plan as soon as possible in our next term of office. That is what we are doing.

We are delivering on our commitment and we did it after our debate in public, not with 12 members of Parliament. We did it after a debate with over 33 million Canadians and asked them what they had to say. They said that we should do that, that we should give them that pooled retirement pension plan. They gave us a majority mandate and asked us to deliver on our commitment. They asked us to do what we said we would do and that is exactly what we are doing.

[Translation]

[Table of Contents]

Mrs. Carol Hughes (Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, NDP):

Madam Speaker, I have had enough of this government, and I am sure you have as well.

This government is ignorant, arrogant and lacking in transparency. Moving time allocation 14 times does not make sense. It does not give us the time required to debate a bill. Furthermore, during the time allocation debate, he said that we have nothing to say about this bill. We have much to say, but the Conservatives do not want Canadians to know about the problems with their bill. This bill will only help big business make profits. What will happen if there is a market downturn? People will find themselves without a pension.

I would like my colleague to answer this question: can the government protect these pensions for Canadians who invest in them? Will this government guarantee the return of every dime invested by Canadians?

[English]

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Peter Van Loan:

Madam Speaker, the problem the hon. member raises is not a problem of the bill. It is a problem of today in that there are too many working people who do not have pension opportunities, options to save. That is why we are creating another such option through the pooled retired pension plan.

It was Stewart Kennedy, president of the Ontario Medical Association, who said:

Ontario's doctors have been leading advocates in calling for pension reform and we believe that this legislation is a positive step forward.

If there are people from such diverse ranges of places saying that it is a positive step forward, if Canadians said that it was a great idea in the last election and if people are saying that it cannot happen soon enough, why does the NDP want to delay it? Why do the NDP members want to deny Canadians more opportunities to save for their retirement? Why put this off to another day? That is a question that I have not heard answered by them.

(1050)

[Table of Contents]

Ms. Elizabeth May (Saanich—Gulf Islands, GP):

Madam Speaker, I will try to answer the government House leader's question as to why it alarms so many people on this side of the House when time allocation is brought forward in a motion by the government benches for the 14th time in this session.

The reason is not that we are trying to delay. We are trying to have a full discussion that will explore the benefits and, potentially, ways to improve the government's legislation. It is called democracy. It is not about delay. It is about having a full hearing. We are all elected here as members of Parliament and, in the theory of Westminster parliamentary democracy, we are equals, but we feel as though we are the ground over which the government bulldozes and we really do not think that it is appropriate.

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Peter Van Loan:

Madam Speaker, the approach of our government is very simple. We make commitments to Canadians and we seek to deliver on them. Our priority is jobs and economic growth and the long-term economic security of Canadians. We are working to deliver on that. We want to present legislation and we do. We present it in election, allow for a full debate and then we present it in the House and allow for debate here.

We think that debate is important and that it has something to offer but we also insist that we need to come to a point where we make decisions. People in this House should have the right to vote and in about half an hour we will ask the members of this House if they want the opportunity to vote on this bill. Are they prepared to allow two more days of debate and then to have a vote on the bill? It is a reasonable proposal, a reasonable approach. Let us avoid the political paralysis of Europe and the United States.

[Table of Contents]

The Deputy Speaker:

Order, please. It is my duty to interrupt the proceedings at this time and put forthwith the question on the motion now before the House.

The question is on the main motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Some hon. members: Agreed.

Some hon. members: No.

The Deputy Speaker: All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Some hon. members: Yea.

The Deputy Speaker: All those opposed will please say nay.

Some hon. members: Nay.

The Deputy Speaker: In my opinion the nays have it.

And five or more members having risen:

The Deputy Speaker: Call in the members.

Before the taking of the vote:

(1125)

[Table of Contents]

The Speaker:

I would just reference page 571 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice.

On occasion, a vote has been taken although one of the Whips had not appeared after the bells rang for the maximum prescribed length of time.

* * *

(1135)

[Translation]

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

(Division No. 105)

YEAS

Members

Ablonczy
Adams
Adler
Aglukkaq
Albas
Albrecht
Alexander
Allen (Tobique—Mactaquac)
Allison
Ambler
Anders
Anderson
Armstrong
Ashfield
Aspin
Bateman
Benoit
Bernier
Bezan
Blaney
Block
Boughen
Braid
Breitkreuz
Brown (Leeds—Grenville)
Brown (Newmarket—Aurora)
Brown (Barrie)
Bruinooge
Butt
Calandra
Calkins
Cannan
Carmichael
Carrie
Chisu
Chong
Clarke
Clement
Daniel
Davidson
Dechert
Del Mastro
Devolin
Dreeshen
Duncan (Vancouver Island North)
Dykstra
Fantino
Findlay (Delta—Richmond East)
Finley (Haldimand—Norfolk)
Galipeau
Gallant
Gill
Glover
Goguen
Goldring
Goodyear
Gosal
Gourde
Grewal
Harper
Harris (Cariboo—Prince George)
Hawn
Hayes
Hiebert
Hillyer
Hoback
Hoeppner
Holder
James
Jean
Kamp (Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission)
Keddy (South Shore—St. Margaret's)
Kent
Kerr
Komarnicki
Kramp (Prince Edward—Hastings)
Lake
Lauzon
Lebel
Leef
Lemieux
Leung
Lizon
Lobb
Lukiwski
Lunney
MacKay (Central Nova)
MacKenzie
Mayes
McColeman
McLeod
Menegakis
Menzies
Merrifield
Miller
Moore (Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam)
Moore (Fundy Royal)
Nicholson
Norlock
O'Connor
Obhrai
Oda
Opitz
Paradis
Payne
Penashue
Poilievre
Preston
Raitt
Rajotte
Rathgeber
Reid
Rempel
Richards
Richardson
Rickford
Ritz
Saxton
Schellenberger
Shea
Shipley
Shory
Smith
Sorenson
Stanton
Strahl
Sweet
Tilson
Toet
Toews
Trost
Trottier
Truppe
Tweed
Uppal
Valcourt
Van Kesteren
Van Loan
Vellacott
Wallace
Warawa
Warkentin
Watson
Weston (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country)
Weston (Saint John)
Wilks
Williamson
Wong
Woodworth
Yelich
Young (Oakville)
Young (Vancouver South)
Zimmer

Total: -- 153

NAYS

Members

Allen (Welland)
Andrews
Angus
Aubin
Ayala
Bélanger
Bellavance
Bennett
Benskin
Bevington
Blanchette
Blanchette-Lamothe
Boivin
Borg
Boulerice
Boutin-Sweet
Brahmi
Brison
Brosseau
Caron
Casey
Cash
Charlton
Chicoine
Chisholm
Choquette
Chow
Christopherson
Cleary
Coderre
Comartin
Côté
Crowder
Cuzner
Davies (Vancouver Kingsway)
Davies (Vancouver East)
Day
Dionne Labelle
Donnelly
Doré Lefebvre
Dubé
Duncan (Etobicoke North)
Duncan (Edmonton—Strathcona)
Dusseault
Easter
Eyking
Foote
Fortin
Freeman
Fry
Garneau
Garrison
Genest
Genest-Jourdain
Giguère
Godin
Goodale
Gravelle
Groguhé
Harris (Scarborough Southwest)
Harris (St. John's East)
Hassainia
Hsu
Hughes
Hyer
Jacob
Julian
Kellway
Lamoureux
Lapointe
Latendresse
Laverdière
LeBlanc (Beauséjour)
LeBlanc (LaSalle—Émard)
Leslie
Liu
MacAulay
Mai
Marston
Martin
Masse
Mathyssen
May
McCallum
McGuinty
McKay (Scarborough—Guildwood)
Michaud
Moore (Abitibi—Témiscamingue)
Morin (Chicoutimi—Le Fjord)
Morin (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine)
Morin (Laurentides—Labelle)
Murray
Nantel
Nicholls
Nunez-Melo
Papillon
Patry
Péclet
Perreault
Pilon
Plamondon
Quach
Rae
Ravignat
Raynault
Regan
Rousseau
Sandhu
Savoie
Scarpaleggia
Sellah
Sgro
Simms (Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor)
Sims (Newton—North Delta)
Sitsabaiesan
St-Denis
Stewart
Stoffer
Sullivan
Thibeault
Toone
Tremblay
Trudeau
Turmel
Valeriote

Total: -- 125

PAIRED

Nil

[Table of Contents]

The Speaker:

I declare the motion carried.

[English]

I wish to inform the House that because of the proceedings on the time allocation motion, government orders will be extended by 30 minutes.

* * *

Second Reading

The House resumed from January 30 consideration of the motion that Bill C-25, An Act relating to pooled registered pension plans and making related amendments to other Acts, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

[Table of Contents]

Ms. Irene Mathyssen (London—Fanshawe, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the chance to speak to Bill C-25, an act regarding the pooled registered pension plan. Certainly there will not be many more of us who have this opportunity.

As members may have already noted, the plan would fail to adequately address the current needs of Canada's aging population. Seniors represent one of the fastest-growing populations in Canada today. The number of seniors in Canada is projected to increase from 4.2 million in 2005 to 9.8 million by 2036. With so many seniors retiring in the years to come, we need to have the social safety net in place now to avoid dramatic increases in the rate of poverty in the future. We need real pension reform, not a savings scheme that is dependent upon the ups and downs of the stock market. Canadians know all too well how ineffective and expensive that kind of savings plan is. Too many saw their savings crumble away as the markets took a nosedive. This is most definitely not how savings for retirement should be organized.

The CPP, when it was established in 1966, was set up with the assumption that individuals would also have workplace pensions and individual savings to complete their CPP benefits. For the average Canadian, real wages have failed to increase, making savings for retirement a virtual impossibility. More and more, workplaces have cut pension programs, leaving only about 25% of workers with a private pension plan.

This savings scheme that we have seen proposed by the federal Conservatives purports to address the pension savings shortfall, but fails to address the problems at the heart of the retirement savings problem in Canada.

For employees, a PRPP is like a defined contribution, or group RRSP. It is a savings vehicle, limited by RRSP limits and regulations, purported to allow workers to save for retirement, but it would not guarantee retirement security. PRPPs would be managed by the financial industry, the same crew receiving huge corporate tax breaks from the Conservatives. The PRPP is not a defined benefit plan. It would not provide a secure retirement income with a set replacement rate of pre-retirement income. It would not be fully transferrable. It would not be indexed to inflation and would not increase with the increasing cost of living.

It is noteworthy that employers, not employees, would decide contribution levels and it would not be mandatory for employers to contribute or match workers' contributions to these PRPPs. Without employers contributing, it would not really be a pension plan. In fact, employers who do not help their employees save for retirement could end up with a competitive advantage over employers who do. This would have a huge limitation on the effectiveness of PRPPs as a means to increase retirement security at all.

The proposed PRPPs do not guarantee low management fees, nor prevent the large management fees that eat up such a large portion of retirement savings now. In fact, there is only a promise that PRPPs will result in large pools of capital and that they might lower fees, with no guarantees or legislative results. Nothing in the PRPP proposals sets management expenses at levels equal to or lower than those of the Canada pension plan. As a result, CPP is still a better deal than PRPPs, not only because CPP is guaranteed and indexed but because it has much lower management fees.

The pooled registered pension plan would not help those who are struggling the most, the poor. The government's own advisory group, the National Seniors Council, in 2009 reported that, generally, most people did not experience dramatic declines in income when they turn 65, rather low income as for seniors is the result of the inability to accumulate assets over time. The council also argues that given their greater longevity, women are far more likely to be unattached in later life and at greater risk of experiencing low incomes. Indeed, women represented about three-quarters of the 179,000 unattached low-income seniors in 2006.

(1140)

The National Seniors Council also points out that Canada's retirement income system, the OAS, CPP and private pension savings and investments, has helped reduced the incidence of low income among seniors and helped increase overall living standards. The OAS and GIS programs play a critical role in ensuring that seniors have a modest base of income. Still, a core group of seniors remain vulnerable: the unattached, recent immigrants, those with fewer than 10 years in the labour force and aboriginal seniors. The council points out that low income seniors spend most of their money on housing, food, transportation and health-related costs.

I have met with Canadian seniors and seniors organizations representing people from across the country. I have taken the time to listen to what they had to say and they are very concerned about access to health care, medicine, being forced from their homes and losing their autonomy. All of these things hinge on one simple thing, financial security. This current scheme, the one we have before us, does not provide security and without financial security, our seniors are left vulnerable to abuse and poverty.

Fixing our pension problem is not the only step we can take. We should provide education and financial literacy so Canadians can be better informed about planning for their retirement. To underscore that point is the 2005 report from the National Council on Aging. It found in a review of under-subscription to the OAS program and Canada pension plan that large numbers of eligible seniors had not applied for these programs. About 55,000 eligible people did not apply for their retirement pension. In 2004 alone, about 1,000 people made a late application for their CPP.

The council recommends that the federal government work to reduce the failure rate among people who are eligible for old age security and CPP benefits. It should also make public the number of eligible seniors who have not applied for the various benefit programs.

This is important because of the negative impact it has. Women are three times more likely to be late applying for CPP. Late applicants are also noticeably more numerous in Quebec, Yukon and the Northwest Territories, regions where there are more seniors living under the poverty line.

The fact is that late applications for CPP benefits causes serious consequences. Currently, a person who is late applying for his or her pension under the CPP is only entitled to 11 months of retroactive benefits, whereas the QPP provides up to 5 years of back benefits. The federal retroactive period for CPP is clearly insufficient and unfair because this program is based on employee-employer contributions. The money has been contributed and it should be available to the retiree.

The council therefore recommends that the federal government allow fully retroactive benefits, plus interest, when someone applies late under the Canada pension plan because it is a contribution-based program.

I will also say a few words about RRSPs, as they are much touted as a safe and valuable retirement savings plan. The National Council on Aging argues that people with low incomes actually derive no advantage from investing in RRSPs, an investment program that allows contributors to delay paying income tax until the invested amounts are cashed in. However, people with low income pay little or no income tax during their working lives anyway. If they are entitled to the GIS upon retirement, they will actually be penalized when they cash in their RRSPs, since these amounts will inevitably lead to a reduction in GIS benefits.

For example, a person receiving the GIS who cashes in a $1,000 RRSP could see his or her GIS benefit reduced by $527. Furthermore, those GIS recipients, who are among the 50% who pay income tax, will see a further reduction of $250. Finally, other benefits such as provincial-territorial income supplements or subsidized housing may be lost or reduced as well. The clawbacks discourage low income earners from making the already difficult effort to save.

(1145)

Among people aged 55 to 64, 21% have no retirement assets and 32% have assets of less than $100,000. Seniors with no retirement income will receive maximum benefits from the government. However, those who have saved a little, about $23,000 in RRSPs, will have a significant portion of their assets confiscated by provincial and federal governments because both of these governments will recover the money through income tax and through reduced benefits paid out of their income tested programs.

This reality points to another, better way to assist low income seniors in gaining economic security. We must end the clawbacks. This would be a smarter investment and first step in eliminating poverty for seniors in Canada.

I would like to talk numbers now. The CCPA outlines the cost savings in investing in pensions. I think the House will find these numbers very interesting.

The federal government estimates that the net cost to the government of tax assistance to RRSPs, the third tier of retirement income, was $9.3 billion in 2005. This was projected to rise to $12.1 billion by 2010. The net cost of tax subsidies to registered pension plans in 2005 was $13.3 billion, projected to increase to $16.8 billion by 2010. Net cost is the cost in lost tax revenue by government for RRSP contributions. It is significant that the net cost in lost tax revenues of tax subsidies to registered pension plans and RRSPs in 2010, at $28.9 billion, is greater than the total cost of OAS benefits, estimated at $27.6 billion for 2009-10.

The CCPA, using data from Statistics Canada, points out that only 38% of employed Canadians have a workplace pension. It is also important to note that most Canadians who are entitled to contribute to an RRSP fail to do so. In many cases it would appear many of those eligible to contribute cannot afford to do that. Statistics Canada reports that 88% of tax filers were eligible to contribute to an RRSP in 2006, but only 31% actually made contributions. They used only 7% of the total contribution room available to them. In other words, there is now more than $500 billion in unused RRSP contribution room being carried forward.

Pension reform should reconsider the high cost of taxpayer subsidies to RRSPs and private pensions. A reduction of the tax subsidies to the third tier of the retirement income system would free up funds to improve benefits for CPP. A secure retirement for all Canadians would be ensured with $28.9 billion.

There are many among us who have concerns for the future and those concerns are entirely justified.

As I mentioned earlier, only 25% of Canadian workers have workplace pensions and nearly one-third have no retirement savings at all. More than 3.5 million Canadians are not saving enough in their RRSPs for what used to be called their golden years and 75% of workers are not even participating in a registered pension plan. Clearly the notion that retirement savings can be adequately accounted for through purchases of RRSPs does not work. Urgent government action is needed.

It should further be noted that private retirement savings are concentrated in a small percentage of Canadian families. According to Statistics Canada, 25% of Canadian families hold 84% of current retirement assets, while three out of ten families have no private pensions at all.

Seniors have worked hard all of their lives. They have played by the rules and now they simply want access to the programs and services that their hard-earned tax dollars helped to make possible. Every senior in Canada has the absolute right to income security.

In a series of polls conducts by the Canadian Labour Congress in 2004, 73% of Canadians polled said that they worried about not having enough income to live after retirement. The number of people who worried about income security had increased by almost 20% from two years before.

Canadians are worried about the solvency of their private pensions, the adequate nature of CPP and public income support and their ability to cope with what Statistics Canada confirms is a higher rate of inflation for seniors than average Canadians. We know life is getting more expensive. Those fears are well-founded. Right now, more than one-quarter of a million seniors live below the poverty line. Since the mid-1990s, the income of seniors has reached a ceiling and the gap between the income of seniors and that of other Canadians is now increasing.

(1150)

According to the government's own National Advisory Council on Aging, between 1997 and 2003 the mean income of senior households increased by $4,100 while the average income of other Canadian households increased by $9,000. The situation is even more pronounced for seniors living alone. A life of poverty is most prevalent among women, those widowed, separated or divorced, recent immigrants, tenants, those without private pension coverage, and not surprisingly, those with low wages.

Senior women face harsh realities upon retirement. The poverty rate for senior women is almost double the poverty rate for senior men. In particular, unattached senior women remain very vulnerable. They make up 60% of seniors living below the poverty line. In 2003, according to a Government of Canada report, 154,000 unattached senior women lived in poverty. Poverty is a real issue for seniors. Income insecurity makes them vulnerable to abuse. Financial security equals autonomy.

New Democrats have concrete solutions to solving the pensions problem that faces Canadians. We would work with the provinces to bring about increases to the Canada and Quebec pension plan benefits with the eventual goal to double the benefits received. We would work with the provinces to build in the flexibility for employees and employers to make voluntary contributions to individual public pension accounts. We would amend federal bankruptcy legislation to move pensions and long-term disability recipients to the front of the line of creditors when their employers enter court protection or declare bankruptcy.

As government, we would increase the annual guaranteed income supplement to a sufficient level in our first budget to lift every senior in Canada out of poverty. Seniors are important to our party, so much so that our first opposition day in the House after the 2011 election was dedicated to asking the government to invest in seniors and raise the GIS sufficiently to eliminate seniors poverty in Canada. We did our homework and discovered that in combination with increases to the GIS set out in the June 2011 budget, the cost to taxpayers would be significantly less than $700 million. This is an intelligent, practical and affordable investment that would make a positive difference in the everyday lives of seniors currently living in poverty.

The argument that we as a country cannot afford to lift seniors out of poverty is preposterous. The most recent round of corporate tax cuts will cost the Government of Canada $13.5 billion over the next three years. A tiny fraction of this money would be enough to lift every senior in this country out of poverty. Canada is a rich and privileged country. Our wealth and prosperity are in no small measure the result of the lifetime of work done by Canadians who are or will be seniors. We absolutely must support these people because it is the ethical thing to do and, in practical terms, because they in turn support our economy and their communities and families. They contribute a great deal.

New Democrats are proposing an easy, affordable, targeted solution to a very real problem. As politicians, we have an obligation to make this happen. It is time that we abandoned partisan rhetoric and acted as one to stand up for seniors.

While I am very pleased that in June the NDP motion passed unanimously in the House and that all parties supported that initiative, the budget implementation bill and this Conservative pension scheme failed to take the NDP motion into account, despite its passing unanimously. The Conservatives seem to have conveniently forgotten their duty to the people they have pledged to serve. It seems that the government is only willing to pay lip service to democracy, as witnessed today, and to seniors struggling to make ends meet.

Canada does not need yet another voluntary, tax-assisted retirement savings program. It needs public pensions that provide all Canadians with a basic guarantee of adequate income that would protect their standard of living in retirement. Expanding the Canada pension plan would meet this objective. Improving the replacement rate of CPP retirement benefits would provide better retirement pensions to virtually all Canadians. A relatively modest increase in rates would achieve this.

The CPP covers all workers, including those who are self-employed. Its benefits would be guaranteed in relation to earnings and years of service. They would be indexed for inflation and fully portable from one job to another. This is the real solution, not the Conservatives' bogus pooled registered pension plan.

(1155)

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Pierre Poilievre (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities and for the Federal Economic Development Agency for Southern Ontario, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member talked simultaneously about two contradictory policy objectives. One, she said that we should bolster public pensions. Two, she said that we should raise business taxes. What does one have to do with the other?

The reality is that every public or private pension program in this entire country is deeply invested in the Canadian stock market. For example, Canada Post workers have a pension plan that has billions of dollars invested in banks and oil companies. In fact, the top five holdings of the Canada Post pension fund are all banks, insurance companies or oil companies. As of the spring, that fund had $200 million invested in TD Bank.

The benefits paid by these corporations to these pension funds are done entirely on an after-tax basis. That means every time business taxes are raised, the dividends paid to pension funds go down. Roughly half of the Canada pension plan is invested in equities of this kind. Again, only after-tax profits can be paid to the CPP on those equity holdings.

Why would the member want to raise taxes on the pension holdings of millions of unionized workers and Canadians who are invested in the CPP?

(1200)

[Table of Contents]

Ms. Irene Mathyssen:

Mr. Speaker, it is very interesting and in fact I find it absolutely fascinating that the member would have the nerve to talk about the pension plans of postal workers when last June the government sought to gut those pension benefits.

If it is so secure, if this is such a good idea, why did the government take the pension benefits out from under the CUPW workers and legislate them back to work from a lockout, robbing them of their pensions, wages and dignity? I find it fascinating that he would have the nerve to even talk about this.

When we say increase contributions to the CPP, it is gradual and it is over time in terms of incremental and will not be felt.

The member talked about this being bad for business. I would say that a whole generation of impoverished seniors who cannot participate in the economy is likewise bad for business.

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, yesterday our critic in the Liberal Party, the member for York West, did a wonderful job in terms of explaining our party's position.

To give a bit of a history, the Liberal Party, through prime ministers like King and Laurier, is the one that implemented the pension programs that we have today. I believe the Liberal Party is just as strong today as it ever was in terms of wanting to ensure that these critically important programs are going to be there and will be healthy going into the future.

When we talk about OAS, GIS or CPP, we are very much concerned with respect to recent announcements by the Conservatives and the impact on these important programs. We are going to fight for the integrity of these programs.

I ask the member, if provinces such as Quebec and others are asking for programs such as the one in this bill, which we would suggest needs major changes to make it better legislation, would the NDP have any problems with it going to committee?

[Table of Contents]

Ms. Irene Mathyssen:

Mr. Speaker, obviously this legislation should and must go to committee once it has passed second reading.

The only problem is that committees have been so limited. They have been hamstrung by the government. The government consistently refuses committees to sit in public. It is very selective in terms of to whom the government wishes to listen. This creates problems.

I have to confess I do not have a great deal of confidence in the democratic nature of what would happen to this bill in committee. I do not think we would we be heard anymore than we are going to be heard in this House. A closure motion has just been moved by the government. The government quite clearly is capable of undermining just about everything.

[Translation]

[Table of Contents]

Mrs. Sadia Groguhé (Saint-Lambert, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for her speech and ask her to explain to Canadians and this House why this bill does not in any way secure our retirement pensions.

[English]

[Table of Contents]

Ms. Irene Mathyssen:

Mr. Speaker, it has none of the attributes that the government insists it has.

It is voluntary for the employer to contribute. The employee may very well decide to make a contribution that the employer decides upon. The employer sets the amount of that contribution and the employer himself or herself may simply refuse to contribute. In addition, it is placed in the stock market. We know that in the last few years seniors have taken a beating in the stock market. Their retirement security has been much diminished. There is no indexing. There is no guarantee. There are management fees.

This is just another group RRSP. It has none of the benefits of the Canada pension plan.

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[Table of Contents]

Mr. Pierre Poilievre:

Mr. Speaker, the Canada pension plan, which the hon. member seems to love so much, has $18 billion invested in Canadian equities. That means it holds large, profitable Canadian companies, the same kind of companies on which the NDP would raise taxes.

Will the hon. member explain how the CPP would make up the loss of money it would suffer if it raised taxes on the very businesses the CPP holds in its portfolio to the tune of $18 billion?

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Ms. Irene Mathyssen:

Mr. Speaker, it is interesting that we are back to tax fairness. If the government had any sense of propriety and tax fairness, it would not have given away $60 billion to the most profitable corporations between 2006 and 2011. It would not be giving an additional $13.5 billion in tax benefits to the same profitable corporations over the next three years, all the while telling Canadians, "Sorry, but you have to pay up. There have to be cuts. We are going to reduce your services. We are going to reduce the departments that provide you with services".

According to the Prime Minister, the government is going to reduce the security of the seniors of the future. We have heard musings about ending or reducing the OAS and GIS. The point is that Canadians across the country who have contributed all of their working lives are counting on those benefits. They have made that benefit possible and now they are being told, "Sorry. Too bad. It's going away".

If the government were really interested in the seniors of the present and the future, it would reform our pension system and make the CPP the centre stone by allowing increases to its benefits to cover the cost of living so that no senior would live in poverty.

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Mr. Jean Rousseau (Compton—Stanstead, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, according to the Conference Board of Canada, 1.6 million senior citizens live in poverty in Canada. Right now 12 million Canadians do not have any type of pension plan for their retirement.

I ask my colleague, why is it important to have a reliable and safe pension plan for all Canadians, as well as health and social programs? Why is it important to make sure that money is put in the right places?

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Ms. Irene Mathyssen:

Mr. Speaker, it is essential that seniors be secure in their retirement. They are great contributors to the economy. All of their lives they have contributed to the well-being of Canadians. They absolutely deserve pension security. It makes economic and ethical sense.

A country is judged by how it treats its most vulnerable. We will be sorely judged if we do not ensure that our seniors are protected.

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Mr. Peter Braid (Kitchener—Waterloo, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to speak today in support of Bill C-25, the pooled registered pension plans act. I will be sharing my time this afternoon with the esteemed member for Crowfoot. Our government understands the importance of a secure and dignified retirement for people who have spent their lives building a better and more prosperous Canada.

I would like to begin by congratulating my colleague, the Minister of State for Finance, for his hard work and his dedication to improving the retirement system in Canada. Over the past two years, he has travelled to communities across this land to consult directly with Canadians. He has met with business and labour groups to discuss key considerations with them. In addition, he has received valuable input from some of the most respected experts in the retirement income field. He has also engaged the opposition parties in constructive dialogue and given serious consideration to their ideas and suggestions. He has worked closely with his provincial and territorial counterparts to ensure their collaboration going forward.

I am happy to say that we have made real progress as a result of these efforts. Last November, our government introduced Bill C-25, the pooled registered pension plans act. This legislation would implement the federal portion of the PRPP framework and change Canada's pension system to make saving for retirement easier for millions of Canadians. PRPPs would fill a gap in the current pension landscape where more than 60% of Canadians do not have a workplace pension plan. This includes small business owners and entrepreneurs and their employees, who often do not have access to company pension plans.

In my riding of Kitchener—Waterloo, this would have a tremendous impact. We are proud to be a centre of innovation where start-ups and small high-tech companies flourish. According to a recent report by Communitech, an organization that supports local technology companies in our area, 300 new companies were established last year in Waterloo region alone, creating 450 jobs. Over the past three years, 531 new companies employing over 1,400 people have been added to our local economy.

The importance of small businesses to Canada's prosperity cannot be overstated. They are the drivers of economic growth and job creation. They foster and reward creativity and innovation, ensuring that Canada will continue to lead in the knowledge economy of the 21st century. That is why our government has taken a number of steps to support small businesses in Canada and the introduction of the PRPPs is one more way that we can help address their needs.

PRPPs would offer a new low-cost pension option that would be especially important for the self-employed, and small businesses and their employees. For the first time, they would have access to a large-scale, low-cost pension plan with professional administrators working to ensure that funds are invested in the best interests of plan members. Since these plans would involve large pooled funds, plan members would benefit from the lower investment management costs associated with the scale of these funds. Essentially, they would be buying in bulk. These features would remove barriers that might have kept some employers in the past from offering pension plans to their employees, and prevented employees and self-employed individuals from participating in large-scale pension plans.

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I am very pleased to see that this new initiative has been widely praised in the small business community. For example, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business released a statement last November supporting this legislation. Its senior vice-president, Dan Kelly, said:

A new voluntary, low-cost and administratively simple retirement savings mechanism will allow more employers, employees, and the self-employed to participate in a pension plan. CFIB is particularly pleased that firms will be given a choice as to whether to register for or contribute to a PRPP.

He added:

We believe that, if properly implemented by provinces, PRPPs have the potential to expand the retirement savings options for thousands of Canadian small businesses and their employees.

The support from small business leaders is also echoed in my riding. The president of the Greater Kitchener-Waterloo Chamber of Commerce, Ian McLean, believes that his members will benefit from the introduction of PRPPs. He said:

An increasing number of Canadians are employed by small and medium sized enterprises. If governments want to assist Canadians in saving more for retirement, our Chamber believes that the best option would be to make it easier for these businesses to offer workplace plans for their employees.

The pooled registered pension plans announced by Minister Menzies last November are an important measure for meeting this national public policy priority and we fully support their implementation. The plans will provide Canadians with a simple, efficient and cost-effective opportunity to save for retirement.

The introduction of the pooled registered pension plan option will also contribute to the ability of small businesses to attract and retain employees. In the Waterloo region, with our concentration of high-tech start-up companies, this will be especially valuable.

According to recent estimates, currently there are approximately 1,300 tech job vacancies in the region, and I have heard first-hand of the difficulties some companies are having in filling these positions. The ability to offer prospective employees access to a retirement savings plan will help small, innovative enterprises to compete with larger companies in attracting the top quality, specialized talent that will allow them to grow and thrive.

There are many solid reasons to support this legislation, which represents a vital improvement to Canada's retirement system and a significant step in advancing our pension agenda. PRPPs will complement and support the Government of Canada's overarching objective of creating jobs, leveraging business investment and securing our economic recovery through sustainable private sector-driven growth.

Bill C-25 is the result of careful consideration and consultation with provinces and territories, key stakeholders and experts and Canadians themselves. I would also like to point out that over the course of our deliberations we took a serious look at other retirement income system proposals put forward by the opposition and other interested parties. We were concerned because many of them would have entailed significantly raised costs for both employers and employees. Introducing them would have been unacceptable during a very tentative economic recovery.

Dan Kelly of the CFIB, whom I quoted earlier, warns against the proposal to hike CPP premiums, and cites data showing that even modest CPP increases would be detrimental to the economy, employment and wages. PRPPs, on the other hand, would be efficiently managed, privately administered pension arrangements that would provide greater choice to employers and individuals, thereby promoting pension coverage and retirement saving.

With the introduction of the PRPP act, our government has taken an important step to expand retirement options for Canadians and we have devoted considerable effort to the retirement security issue in order to get it right. I encourage all members to support this legislation.

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In addition to our passing Bill C-25, the provinces and territories will also need to introduce their own enabling legislation to ensure that this new initiative can be introduced and implemented in their jurisdictions. Working together, I am confident that we can get these new retirement vehicles up and running for Canadians as quickly as possible.

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Mr. Mike Sullivan (York South—Weston, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, I listened to my colleague's speech, but we still have the same problem, in that many Canadians cannot afford any kind of voluntary system to which employers do not contribute. There is no requirement within this pooled retirement savings plan to cause employers to contribute. Therefore, employees who are making minimum wage will never be able to contribute to it. I have negotiated a number of times with employers whose employees were down near the bottom of the food chain as it were, and there was no way they could contribute anything extra to any form of pension plan.

What will the government do for those kinds of individuals who have no opportunity and will not gain an opportunity by the introduction of yet another saving scheme?

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Mr. Peter Braid:

Mr. Speaker, the pooled registered pension plan system and the pension plan act will fill a very important gap. As I indicated in my remarks, 60% of Canadians do not have a workplace pension plan. This important government initiative will help to fill that policy gap. It will provide small business owners, small business employees, entrepreneurs and the self-employed with access to a retirement savings vehicle, an option they do not have today.

This is part of our government's overall concern not only for a strong and sustainable retirement income system here in Canada, but a strong and stable economic recovery as well.

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Hon. Gerry Byrne (Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the advice and points of view of the hon. member of the government who is proposing this particular piece of legislation.

I want to ask a very specific question. While the member has lauded certain advantages that could be accrued from this investment initiative, are there some downsides?

Since the hon. member has indicated that he has a deep and intimate knowledge of the program his government is proposing, I would ask him if there would be any financial consequence in terms of eligibility for the guaranteed income supplement for an individual who contributes and then draws down his or her pension? Will contributions to this particular investment vehicle when paid out in the form of a pension later in life during a person's pensionable senior years be considered income? Normally, income results in a consequence in the means test for someone's eligibility for the guaranteed income supplement.

Will there be that means test? Will drawing down from that particular pension affect a person's GIS eligibility? If so, does the hon. member actually believe there is an incentive then to contribute?

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Mr. Peter Braid:

Mr. Speaker, in fact I do strongly believe there is significant incentive for small businesses to participate in this new pooled registered pension plan regime. There will be significant incentive for employees of those small businesses to contribute, participate in and encourage their employers to participate in this new option.

Of course, this is part of a suite of income security and retirement plans that we want to make sure is available to Canadians, in addition to group RRSPs, the RRSP vehicle, and the CPP that we are very proud of in this country, as well as the GIS and OAS. It is one more option, in this case for Canadian small business owners and employees, to take advantage of and that is not available to them today.

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Mr. Kevin Sorenson (Crowfoot, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise in the House and represent the constituency of Crowfoot in Alberta and speak to our Conservative government's efforts to help Canadians save for their retirement through the pooled registered pension plan. This is a modern effort to assist Canadians who are self-employed or who work for small firms or businesses. Our intent is to help Canadians who work where there is no company pension plan to have another avenue to invest into a company-style pension plan.

In my riding of Crowfoot, a large number of my constituents are not employed by large corporate firms or businesses or even small companies with a pension plan. I believe this is true in most rural areas of Canada.

In 2010, Canada's finance ministers agreed on a framework for a defined contribution pooled registered pension plan. When I talk about Canada's finance ministers I speak of the provinces and territories coming together with our federal finance minister and recognizing a need for this type of pension plan. It has already been noted that a number of ministers, such as the member for Macleod, and others travelled across the country and heard this from Canadians as well. Unity among the finance ministers is something that can be applauded, but certainly when they recognized the significant need for this type of pension plan. Our Conservative government's finance minister and those ministers from the provinces and territories agreed to work together to come up with a savings vehicle that would help them meet their retirement objectives.

Everyone agrees that this new option to save for retirement should be low-cost, efficiently managed, portable and accessible. We do not want to burden Canadians who are willing to set a little aside every paycheque to save for their retirement. We want the new pooled registered saving system to be well managed. It needs to be able to serve the many needs of Canadian workers using it and still must remain easy to access. We want Canadian workers to take their pooled pension plan from job to job to job.

Over the Christmas break I had the opportunity to be in Japan for eight days. During those eight days, we talked a lot about trade, beef and all those important things for our country to be able to access the Japanese markets. One of the things I learned when I was there was that the average citizen in Japan who begins with a company early out of university or college will stick with that company through his or her lifetime. As a result, there are those in Japan who have worked for the same company for 40 or 50 years. It is our experience here in Canada that many people go from job to job. They go from one opportunity to another opportunity. We want to be certain that this pension plan will allow those Canadians to take it with them and maintain that same plan as they go from one job to another. That is what we are trying to accomplish in the House today.

We are going to construct this system, get it up and running and help hard-working Canadians create a retirement fund for themselves. The pension plan will be called the pooled registered pension plan, or PRPP. PRPP members will pool their pensions through administrators to keep the cost of managing this new system down. By providing this low-cost retirement savings opportunity for employees, as well as the self-employed, PRPPs will play a key role in improving the range of retirement savings options available to Canadians.

I remind the House that this is especially important for the millions of small business owners and their employees who would have access to a private pension plan for the very first time.

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Before I came into politics 11 years ago, I owned a farm and was a farmer but I also owned a small business. I guess that would be two small businesses. The farm was a business but I also owned an auction company. Although we had more contract workers than full-time employees throughout the entire year, I was never able to afford to offer such a pension plan to the workers. There were other businesses that had a number of employees and this incentive could never be offered to the employees. They continued to get their wages, maybe excellent ones and sometimes not quite so excellent, but one thing that was always a frustration for many of the workers was that they did not have a pension plan because their companies were too small to provide it. By providing this type of retirement savings opportunity, the PRPP would play a key role in improving the range of retirement savings options available to Canadians.

This could be one of the best things that the federal government could for the farmers and agricultural workers in my riding, and not just the farmers themselves. With this type of plan, many small companies in my riding, such as grain, fertilizer, hardware, the bumper-to-bumper types of businesses, could have a formal pension system. They do not even have a way to save for their retirements now through a company other than their own RRSPs. However, with the PRPPs they will and we will see that they will use this type of pension plan.

Husbands and wives, fathers, sons and grandparents pitch in on the farm and get to the job at hand. They try to get the crops and money in as quickly as they can. When they do this, they sometimes find that there are moneys left over at the end of the year so they may put it into a farm account as they know the farm may need it the next year. This plan would help them to identify something that has been missing for a lot of them, which is that there will be a need in their retirement years to supplement the CPP or whatever they have coming in at that point in time.

We have the option now of using RRSPs. I have heard the comment that we already have that option, as well as the TFSA that we brought forward. Now we have another option. This is not a stand-alone retirement plan. This is another option that we can be involved in and excited about.

There are numerous obstacles to seniors trying to retire in rural Canada. A pooled retirement pension plan would not only help but, in some cases, it would be the single thing that would allow a farmer to retire. Currently, farmers understand that their land is their retirement plan. They pay off their ranches or farms and know that when it comes time to retire they will be able to sell their land. These people may be in a vulnerable position depending on the real estate market when they try to sell. The PRPP is another tool that they could use to hold off on selling their land until market conditions improve. It would provide them with the opportunity to gear down without having to sell off their family farms.

One of the frustrations that all those in agriculture have is that we feel that we have missed a generation of young farmers starting out. I think this would afford many people the ability to dip into those savings without selling off their land and perhaps being able to use their land as an incentive for the next generation, their sons or daughters, to begin farming. This is worthy of debate today and I am excited about the new plans being proposed.

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As a businessman, I wish this had been available many years ago. The sooner we can proceed with this the better. We recognize that, although we may be in a global downturn, Canadians can put themselves into a vulnerable position if they are not looking forward to their retirement years. This is just another one of those ways of helping Canadians to be prepared as they retire.

[Table of Contents]

Mrs. Carol Hughes (Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, NDP)

Mr. Speaker, members on that side of the House do not want healthy debate to look at the pitfalls of any legislation they may put forward. We have debate in the House to ensure that, if there are any pitfalls or problematic areas, we can look at fixing those.

This registered pension plan is another tool but, at the end of the day, is it really what we need? Do we not need a pension that would be indexed to inflation with which we would be extremely sure that at the end of the day people would be able to retire?

One of the pitfalls in this bill is that there is no cap on administration fees or costs and merely assumes that lowers costs will emerge through competition in the marketplace.

Would the member tell those people who would look at investing in the pooled registered plan whether they would be at the mercy of the market? A lot of our constituents and Canadians across Canada could lose their money at the end of the day because investing in the market is not a secure thing to do.

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Mr. Kevin Sorenson:

Mr. Speaker, I will just back up a little bit. The status quo is not good enough. Currently, 60% of people in the workforce in Canada have no pension plan. They have nothing. Would they be at the mercy of the market? Jobs are at the mercy of the market. Everyone, in some respect, is at the mercy of someone or something. This is another one of those things that takes the risk out of the market.

The member is nodding her head, but a job is dependent on being able to sell the product that is being made. Certainly, when we try to diminish risk, we want to be able to set things aside in a secure way. That is why all provinces are stepping up to this and saying that we need to work together on this. In NDP provinces, Liberal provinces and Conservative provinces, finance ministers are working together and saying that we need to build something here that will help the 60% of employees who have nothing.

That is what we are intending to do, working in unity with everyone. Unfortunately, it does not look like we are working with the NDP members but we want them to come along and work with us.

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Mr. Sean Casey (Charlottetown, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, I listened to my colleague from Crowfoot talk about support from the finance ministers across the country. I talked to one of the finance ministers in this country this morning. What the member for Crowfoot did not say was that this option was not the first choice of the majority of finance ministers and their support for this option was conditional on the enhancement to the Canada pension plan or to some other scheme.

My question is for the member for Crowfoot who attempted to leave the impression with the House that there was unanimous and unqualified support from the finance ministers. What other pension reforms will be brought in to meet the consensus, to meet the demands and to win the acceptance of the provincial finance ministers?

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Mr. Kevin Sorenson:

Mr. Speaker, I know the new member understands that when all finance ministers come together, there is always negotiation. They do not just sit down at the table, with everyone initially accepting everything exactly as it is laid out.

Everyone recognizes the need for this type of option. Everyone recognizes the need to work together. That is commitment the government has given to other provincial governments, that we are willing to sit down and work together with them.

Right now we have a very good avenue called the RRSP. It has been there for many years. Back in 1991, 41% of the workforce bought into the idea of RRSPs. We still know how important it is to have the RRSPs, but we recognize that it will not solve all the problems. In 2007 the average of buy-in to RRSPs was about 39% of Canadians, yet we know from the demographic of our country that we have an aging population. We need to be aware and have that right in our face, that we all need to be saving for our future. We need to be saving for those retirement years.

CPP is strong in our country. However, when we see this changing demographic, we need to understand that there will be problems 10 years down the road. There has to be problems 15 years down the road. This government has the foresight to look ahead and say that we need to fix it now before it is completely broken, that we need to put in a remedy to maintain what we have now, so that in 10, 15 years, when we really see the pitch, we are not all left here scratching our heads saying, “would of, could of, should of”.

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[Translation]

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Ms. Manon Perreault (Montcalm, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, I will share my time with the member for Newton—North Delta.

Today, we are talking about a bill that provides a legal framework for the establishment and administration of pooled registered pension plans that will be accessible to employees and self-employed persons and that will pool the funds in members’ accounts to achieve lower costs in relation to investment management and plan administration.

In short, we are talking about a new savings tool and not a plan that would secure retirement pensions. In fact, rather than addressing pension security, the government is proposing a new savings tool that will depend on the state of the stock market. This is another way the Conservatives have found to gamble with our retirement funds. The government recognized that there is a pensions crisis when it adopted the NDP opposition's motion. Members will no doubt recall that the motion outlined the need for a national pension insurance plan to protect workers' deferred wages or pension plans in the event of employer bankruptcy. At the same time, we initiated a discussion regarding the gradual increase of Canada pension plan contributions in order to increase benefits. Yet, although the government recognized that there is a problem, it is turning its back on seniors who are simply seeking to secure their futures.

Let us talk a little about what these pooled registered pension plans would do.

The measures proposed in Bill C-25 do not even guarantee a pension. This is more of a savings vehicle than a stable, reliable pension plan. While this savings plan would pool funds from participants to reduce the costs associated with managing the plan and investments, this bill does not cap the fees charged by the fund managers. Experiences in other countries show that these costs often chip away at pension savings to the point that the rate of growth in savings does not even match inflation. This bill is supposed to help self-employed workers and employees of small and medium-sized businesses, which often do not have the means to offer a private sector pension plan. A similar system was set up in Australia 12 years ago and has not yet proven worthwhile. Because of high fees and costs, returns on investment have not been much higher than inflation.

There is another big problem with pooled registered pension plans: they do not seem to offer anything new. They look just like a regular RRSP. This option would be just another defined contribution pension plan. Employees would deposit a portion of their salary in the retirement fund, and that money would be invested in stocks, bonds and mutual funds. Well-intentioned companies that care about their employees' well-being can match contributions, but they are not required to do so. However, considering the current climate in the business world, I think that companies will try to cut costs wherever they can.

Even more worrisome, this defined contribution plan in no way guarantees the amount of money that would be available upon retirement. The money employees set aside while working hard their entire lives would not be protected from the risks associated with fluctuating markets. As is the case with registered retirement savings plans, the individual or employee in question would completely and exclusively assume all market risks. Regulated financial institutions like banks, insurance companies and trust companies would manage the PRPPs for a fee. Canadians also need to consider the fact that PRPP benefits would not be indexed to inflation, unlike Canada pension plan benefits. The provinces and territories would determine whether the employers or employees of businesses of a certain size will be required to contribute to a PRPP.

Pooled registered pension plans, as they are defined in Bill C-25, do not provide any retirement security because they encourage families to invest even more of their retirement savings in a declining stock market. When the stock market is rising, savings increase of course, but conversely, savings take a nosedive when the market declines.

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Anyone whose RRSPs took a hit last year knows very well how risky it is to invest one's savings in any products linked to the stock market.

By encouraging families to invest in the same system that is already failing them, the Conservatives are showing just how out of touch they are with the reality facing Canadians and Quebeckers.

Over the pas three years, the NDP has suggested a number of proposals to ensure retirement income security. As we have indicated, the NDP first proposed increasing Canada pension plan benefits for a given period. Benefits would increase to $1,920 a month. Of all the possible solutions for pension reform, increasing Canada pension plan benefits is quite simply the most effective and affordable solution.

The NDP believes that retirement income security for seniors cannot be built on just one plan or one option. We believe that pensions need to be discussed in a more general way. We think that Canadians want us to examine all pensions as a whole. Our goal is not to reduce them, but rather to ensure their continued existence in order to protect our seniors for many years to come.

Our plans for retirement security were laid out in our election platform. The New Democrats were clear in last May's election campaign: we want a substantial increase in the guaranteed income supplement to help seniors who qualify for these benefits escape poverty. This measure targets 250,000 Canadians, most of them women.

As for the Conservatives, there was no indication in their election platform that, once elected, they would change the eligibility criteria for old age security and raise the eligibility age from 65 to 67. However, that has been the talk recently.

In recent weeks, in my riding of Montcalm, I have spoken to people who are worried about their future and their retirement. Someone wrote to me this week and told me that he had worked until he was 69 and was forced to get food aid at the age of 70. I find this unacceptable.

A couple from Saint-Roch-de-l'Achigan told me that the population is aging and no one deserves to lose their life savings, especially after working hard all their life.

Michel Janyk, from Mascouche, is also worried about Bill C-25. He believes that we should guarantee and protect our retirement funds.

My constituents are not the only ones who are worried. Jason Heath, a certified financial planner at E.E.S. Financial Services Ltd., has said that pooled registered pension plans are, generally speaking, no different from RRSPs. Contributions are tax deductible and allow tax-deferred growth. Taxes are paid after retirement and the contributions are often invested in mutual funds. According to a 2006 report entitled “Mutual Funds Fees Around the World”, mutual fund fees are higher in Canada than anywhere else. It is not surprising that investment and insurance companies are applauding the arrival of pooled registered pension plans.

You can see how Bill C-25 to establish pooled registered pension plans does nothing to make the pensions of thousands of Canadians more secure.

The Conservatives' pooled registered pension plan does nothing to help the families who are being crushed under debt, and it is bound to fail since it is a voluntary plan—I repeat, “voluntary”—a defined contribution plan administered by wealthy financial institutions that sometimes invest in collapsing markets.

This uncertainty and volatility leave families with no guarantee that their savings will still be there when it comes time to retire.

At a time when the economy is so precarious, families do not need additional risks. They need the stability of the CPP or the Quebec pension plan. Economists and provincial leaders have been saying that for years, but this government, disconnected as it is from reality, is once again turning its back on families.

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[English]

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Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims (Newton—North Delta, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, what kind of actions could the government take to ensure that Canadians in their retirement would have the necessary income to live a life of dignity?

[Translation]

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Ms. Manon Perreault:

Mr. Speaker, it is very easy to understand. Canada's pooled registered pension plan is simply one of many retirement products, including RRSPs, group RRSPs, pension plans and TFSAs, which may be good options for those who are already able to contribute. The new plan, therefore, is a good option for those who already have money to invest in RRSPs. However, the NDP will not support this savings plan because the Conservatives want to offer this system instead of taking concrete measures to protect existing pensions and enhance the retirement security of those who do not have a workplace pension plan.

[English]

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, I am sure the member is aware that yesterday the government stated its intention to bring in time allocation. Today it moved the motion and then, with its majority government, passed the motion which is not going to allow for a healthy debate inside the House of Commons.

I have found that Canadians are very much concerned about the pension issue, about the fact that the Prime Minister and his government want to increase the retirement age from 65 to 67, and about the government's commitment to the CPP and the guaranteed income supplement.

I wonder if the member might comment on how she feels about the government's decision to force this legislation through without allowing for adequate debate.

[Translation]

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Ms. Manon Perreault:

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member. It is true that Canadians are very concerned about this issue. That is what I heard people talking about the most when I was in my riding of Montcalm recently. It is important to note that, at present, 12 million Canadians do not have a workplace pension plan. Bill C-25 will not help meet that objective. Canadians do not need a new, private, voluntary savings plan. They need concrete measures that will allow them to retire in dignity.

I hope that I am answering the hon. member's question. Why give workers a new, less reliable savings plan—the PRPP—when we could simply improve the reliable pension plan that is already in place, the Canada pension plan or the Quebec pension plan? CPP or QPP contributions are mandatory. It thus stands to reason that improvements to this plan would help more workers than the plan proposed in Bill C-25. This would be a way of ensuring that workers have a decent retirement.

[English]

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Ms. Elizabeth May (Saanich—Gulf Islands, GP):

Mr. Speaker, I heard in my hon. colleague's speech reference to registered retirement savings plans as an existing option. Yet, if we look at the history of RRSPs we find that a minority of Canadians participate and by far the largest number of those who have any substantial savings in RRSPs tend to be higher income Canadians.

Does she not agree that expanding the Canada pension plan would be far more likely to provide coverage for those who currently are not covered by any pension plan and who do not contribute to RRSPs?

[Translation]

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Ms. Manon Perreault:

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member. I did indeed say that people who have money to invest in RRSPs will have money to invest in the PRPP. But, will people who do not have money to invest in RRSPs have money to invest in a pooled registered pension plan? We need to look at this logically. By improving the QPP and the CPP, we would ensure that workers have a pension plan and a decent standard of living during their retirement.

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[English]

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Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims (Newton—North Delta, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, I was delighted a few minutes ago when a colleague of mine across the aisle said that it is time for us to have a fulsome debate. Unfortunately, a motion that was passed this morning does exactly the opposite. We have limited time to discuss something that will have a fundamental impact on Canadians as they look forward to their retirement.

When I look at the title of the bill, the pooled registered pension plans act, I cannot see too many elements in it that look like a pension. It reminds me of the visa system that used to exist. We now have super visas. In many ways, this is more like a super RRSP. I would argue that once someone puts money into this pooled idea, that individual will lose the kind of control that he or she has over investments in a personal RRSP that can be managed through a banking institution.

The government is being reckless. There is nothing in the bill that requires an employer to make any guaranteed contributions. That would be optional. With many small businesses struggling, I cannot see employers making voluntary contributions to a pension plan for their employees. That is a major flaw in this legislation.

There is another major flaw in the bill. We seem to have turned a blind eye to what we have experienced over the last few years. We just need to look south of the border and hear the heart-rending stories of people who lost their pension plans totally as a result of the market going down. People who thought they were about to retire suddenly found themselves having to work longer. Even then, they will not make up the money they lost. Here in Canada, those of us who invested in mutual funds held in RRSPs also watched our savings disappear.

This pooled plan is only a defined contribution plan. Savings can disappear at the whim of the stock market. The situation in Europe and around the world is very volatile. If I had a limited income, would I choose to put my money into this plan? Would I gamble with my hard-earned money and put it into a pooled fund?

This is an open chequebook for banks. There is nothing in this legislation that says a cap will be set on management fees. This would really be a lose-lose situation for the person who puts money into this pooled fund. For those people who could afford to put money aside, they would be worse off putting money into this fund than if they put it into their own RRSPs.

I come from the riding of Newton--North Delta. I have had the privilege over the last month of meeting hundreds of my constituents. Most of them told me that they have to work two or three jobs to make ends meet. Many of them do not have a pension plan and they do not have money to put into RRSPs.

The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives released a study that says that over $500 billion in RRSP contributions was not utilized by Canadians. All of the people who could have had this great tax break did not make use of it. I would argue that some of them were scared because they saw what happened to the market and they saw their RRSPs shrinking. The vast majority of them do not have the wherewithal to put money into this pooled fund.

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If the government wants to address the pension issue, this is a critical time for us to be taking a look at old age security. Senior after senior came to my office and I visited them in the seniors' centres. They told me the same story over and over again. They are having to go to food banks. They are hand stitching their torn clothes. They are telling me that the old age security pension is not enough. I actually had an 83-year-old who told me that she applied at Wendy's and three other locations to get a part-time job, but nobody would hire her.

Is this the life of dignity we talk about for our seniors? Is this the reward given to the people who built this country while we enjoy the fruits of their labour?

I have had the privilege of visiting a lot of high schools and elementary schools in my district. I was so touched by the concern of so many students for those living in poverty, especially seniors.

When I spoke at North Delta Secondary School, students asked me, “What do you do? Who comes to see you in your MP office?” I told them the story of three people who had been to see me that morning. I told them of a senior who came to see me who lives in a garage that he rents for $300 a month. He only cooks twice a week because that saves on energy costs. He has to time when he can have his heat on. He only has one outlet in that garage, so he can either have the computer or the lights on. He showed me the state of his clothing. He told me how embarrassing it was for him to have to go to the food bank. This is one of the veterans we purport to treat with such dignity and respect.

When I told that story to the grade 10, 11 and 12 assembly, the vast majority of those young people had tears in their eyes. Over and over again, they said that they did not realize that in Canada our seniors, who are like their grandparents, are having to live in such poverty.

If the Conservative government brought a bill forward that would lift our seniors out of poverty immediately, I and every NDP member would stand up and speak for it. Let us not come up with a bill that does nothing to address the poverty our seniors live in, that puts into jeopardy Canadians' hard-earned money as it lures them with a false pension scheme. That is what it is.

I will read from an editorial in the Calgary Herald, which is located in a very progressive city. It states:

The CPP already covers almost all Canadian workers and thus spreads the risk and management fees. It is fully portable, offers guaranteed income to all retirees, and is the only risk-free investment broadly available to workers. Private RRSPs and employer pension plans have proven much riskier than initially billed. Those who are in company pension plans are likely in a defined contribution scheme, where the amount that goes in is predetermined, but the payout is based on how well the fund is invested and ultimately performs. Nortel workers know only too well how that worked.

I plead with my colleagues across the aisle not to gamble with our citizens' hard-earned money in a scheme that is so volatile and has no protection. Let us not do that.

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Mr. Pierre Poilievre (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities and for the Federal Economic Development Agency for Southern Ontario, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, once again, we have a member of the NDP saying that we cannot trust the caprice of the stock market with the savings of the Canadian people who would use it for their retirement. Instead, those members argue that we should increase the CPP. Unfortunately for the NDP, there is an inconvenient fact that $18 billion worth of the CPP's holdings are invested in the Canadian stock market. About half of the entire portfolio is invested in equities both in Canada and around the world. Therefore, when the member disparages the stock market, she is disparaging the CPP.

I should also point out that those Canadian companies owned by the Canada pension plan can only pay returns to the Canada pension plan after tax. When the NDP proposes to raise taxes on Canadian businesses, it would reduce the after-tax payout that those businesses could pay into the CPP and other pension plans that hold them. For example, the CPP owns an oil sands company, Canadian Natural Resources; a bank, the TD Bank; Devon Energy, another oil sands company; Cameco, a uranium company, which the NDP would shut down.

How can the NDP support the CPP when it wants to shut down the industries on that index and raise taxes on the businesses that pay dividends to the Canada pension plan?

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Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims:

Mr. Speaker, once again, what my colleague fails to comment on is that there is a huge difference between defined contributions and a defined benefits plan.

The CPP, during some of our most volatile periods in the stock market, lost ground by 1%, whereas the stock market outside of the CPP lost ground by 11%. There is a buffer in the CPP that does not exist when money is put into a pooled plan, which is just another RRSP.

Once again, I would urge my colleague to do his homework and study the difference between a defined contribution plan and a defined benefits plan. The CPP is a defined benefits plan that actually is indexed for inflation as well.

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Mr. Sean Casey (Charlottetown, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, I appreciated my colleague's comments and the passion with which she spoke about people in poverty.

During this debate, we have heard members opposite say that 60% of Canadians have no plan. The day after this bill is passed, what is in it that will make it more affordable for employees or employers to save for their retirement? If we start from the basis that there are so many people without a plan that they cannot afford, what is in the bill that will make it more affordable for employers or employees?

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Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims:

Mr. Speaker, absolutely nothing. When we look at it, it is like saying to people who are working two or three jobs, still living on the edges of poverty or in poverty that tomorrow they can go shopping. If they go shopping, they will get a bit of a tax break on it. Folks would need to have money in their hands first to go shopping before they could earn the tax break.

A young woman phoned me this week and said that she had been duped by the government. I asked what she meant. She said that there was a tax credit she could get if her children were registered in sports and things. She said that she had three kids who she had registered in sports, and now she was being told it was a tax credit. She will not get anything because she does not make enough money. However, she does want her children to participate.

In many ways, this is something similar. There is nothing in the bill that improves salaries or incomes to families that are struggling. When there is $500 billion worth of contributions that are not being utilized, and those are tax breaks, that should send a strong message to my colleagues across the way. Let us address poverty for seniors today instead of trying to pretend we are doing something.

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Mrs. Cathy McLeod (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Revenue, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, it is certainly my pleasure to rise in the House today to speak to Bill C-25, Pooled Registered Pension Plans Act. This legislation is the result of some three years of careful preparation and consultation on the part of our government in partnership with the provinces, territories and other stakeholders. As a result, we are now in a position to pass legislation that will help millions of Canadians, who do not have access to a pension plan, to prepare for their retirement.

I would like to begin by taking a moment to reflect on why the legislation is so important and what prompted its creation.

First, governments have known for a number of years that a demographic shift is taking place in Canada. In spite of immigration and the growth of certain sectors of the Canadian population such as among first nations, the overall demographic trend is toward the growing number of Canadians reaching retirement age. This is due not only to the retirement of the baby boomer generation, but also to the fact that more Canadian seniors are living longer.

The challenge this creates for us as the government and for Canada as a society is how we can contribute to a basic quality of life for our aging population in the face of increased strain on our retirement income system. This challenge is made all the more poignant by the immense contributions that our retirees have made to the growth and prosperity of our country. Our seniors deserve dignified retirement. That is why in recent years our government has taken action through a range of measures to support elements of our retirement income system that have a proven record of success.

For example, we built on the framework for federally regulated registered pension plans and took steps to ensure that employers fully funded benefits if the pension plan was terminated. Working with the provinces, we also modernized the CPP making it more flexible for those transitioning out of the workforce.

In budget 2011 we introduced a new guaranteed supplement top-up benefit for Canada's most vulnerable seniors. I would like to note that the opposition voted against that important increase in GIS for seniors. As a result, more than 680,000 low-income seniors now receive additional benefits of up to $600 for a single and $680 for a couple. In addition, we have provided some $2.3 billion in additional annual targeted tax relief to seniors and pensioners through measures such as pension income splitting, increases in the age credit amount and the doubling of the maximum amount of income eligible for the pension income credit.

Although all of these measures are intended to provide greater flexibility and security to our retirement income system, additional measures are required to safeguard Canadians as they reach retirement age. That is why in May 2009, as the world reacted to the global financial crisis, the federal-provincial-territorial finance ministers met and agreed to form the working group on retirement income adequacy.

After months of consultation, the working group concluded that while our Canadian retirement system was on the whole performing well, some Canadian households were at risk of not saving enough for retirement. A gap identified by the working group was the large number of Canadians, 60% in fact, who had no access to a workplace pension plan.

In December 2010 the finance ministers from across the country agreed that a defined contribution pension plan could be made available to 60% of Canadians and they agreed to pursue a framework for pooled registered pension plans.

Members of the opposition have repeatedly stood in this place during the debate on the bill and have argued against the position of our finance ministers from across the country. They suggest that the key to retirement security is simply to expand Canada pension plan benefits. We know that changes to the CPP would require the agreement of at least two-thirds of the provinces with at least two-thirds of the population. The federal-provincial-territorial ministers of finance have discussed this very notion of a CPP expansion, but there has been no agreement.

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Beyond that, if the CPP were to be expanded, Canadians could count on increases to their CPP contributions as a result. Surely a fragile economic recovery is not the right time to increase the amount Canadians have to pay on their CPP contributions.

That being said, moving forward on a PRPP does not preclude some future change to the CPP. The opposition needs to understand that this government is not closing the door on CPP. Rather we are opening the door to a new low-cost and accessible option that will help Canadians meet their retirement goals.

This is especially important for those working for small businesses and the self-employed. Currently, owners of small businesses who might want to create a pension plan for their employees but lack the resources and expertise to do so, or for those in companies that do not have pension plans or are self-employed and want to have access, they are not able to under our current system.

PRPPs would be administered by a financially regulated institution thereby decreasing the cost and complexity for small business owners in setting up such a plan. PRPPs would be accessible to those without an employer-employee relationship, allowing the self-employed to benefit from the advantages of PRPPs, including the lower costs that would result from the pooled funds.

Currently some Canadians may be failing to take advantage of the saving opportunities offered to them through individual structures like RRSPs. In fact, on average, each Canadian has over $18,000 in unused RSP room. Even among those who do make a concerted effort to maximized their retirement income through voluntary contribution structures, a PRPP could provide avid stability.

For example, I will touch on a story of one self-employed Canadian's retirement savings experience. This gentleman worked as a self-employed stone mason prior to retirement and his main form of retirement savings was through RRSPs. Particularly in the last years of his career, he increasingly worked toward maximizing his RRSP contributions and ensured that they were invested reasonably securely, but nevertheless provided some return on investment. Today he is able to live on the retirement income he was able to provide for himself, but only after a lot of hard work on his part to educate himself on RRSPs and investment. In his own words: “It takes years to develop a way of investing that is wise”.

While it is a stated goal of our government to improve financial literacy, we are also aware that many Canadians may not have the time, opportunity or the desire to study investing and not everyone has access to a broker or financial adviser. This is where PRPPs would provide a great benefit because the responsibility for implementing the pension plan would be taken on by the third-party administrator.

The administrator will be responsible for the management of the pension fund and the day-to-day administration of the pension plan. This will include ensuring that the money being contributed into the plan is being managed prudently, that appropriate investments and options are offered and that plan members are informed with up-to-date plan information. Additionally, because PRPP investments are pooled, it is expected that members will be able to benefit from greater economies of scale and lower costs compared to RRSPs.

Another major benefit of the PRPP is its universality and portability. In my own riding of Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo many people rely on seasonal work for employment, which is a fact of life for many rural Canadians across the country.

For example, let us say that a constituent of mine named John works at the ski resort of Sun Peaks during the winter, but during the summer must find work at a local ranch. Under our current system, John would be left to his own initiative to invest in RRSPs or contribute to his tax-free savings account. Now, thanks to the portability of the PRPP, John can contribute to the same pension plan, regardless of which employer he happens to be working for.

Providing a new, accessible, straightforward and administratively low-cost retirement saving option will allow more Canadians to benefit from secure retirement savings. I am therefore proud to support the government's move to implement PRPPs and hope, with the support of the provinces and territories, that we may speedily implement this important reform for our retirement system.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, the member has made reference to the fact that the provinces are onside, and I am encouraged to hear that. Could she give any kind of clear indication of the commitment she has received from the provinces in terms of implementation? Are we to anticipate that more than half of Canada's provinces would be bringing in provincial legislation over the next 12 months? Does the government have any indication of that whatsoever? I think it would be helpful to know that before the bill actually goes to committee.

It is also important to ask the member why her government has made the decision to limit debate in the House of Commons on this very important issue. Does she not see the valuable role that the House of Commons plays in this? The government has sat for eight-plus months on this idea, brings it to the House and then expects the House to pass it in four days.

Could the member address those two issues?

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Mrs. Cathy McLeod:

Mr. Speaker, I would note that with regard to CPP there was not agreement with the provinces and the finance ministers from across the country. However, there was great agreement to move forward with PRPPs. We have had this out for a number of months. We talked about it with people during the election. I actually discussed this at round tables recently when we were looking at the budget. I can say that it was enthusiastically greeted as an additional tool in terms of a retirement savings program.

Again we need to recognize that there are many pillars to our program and this creates another great tool. I know that constituents are looking forward to having this option. it is important to move it forward quickly so the committee has the opportunity to look at the details.

[Translation]

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Mr. Guy Caron (Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to my colleague's speech, and the member for Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo repeated something that I had heard in previous speeches. I have already asked this question, but I have not yet received an answer, so I will try again.

The member mentioned in her speech that the economies of scale offered by pooled registered pension plans will lower management costs, but I have yet to see proof of that.

Can the member tell me where she got her numbers, given that the largest private sector mutual funds in Canada, which have many, many contributors, still have management costs on the order of 2% to 2.5%, which is much higher than the CPP's management costs at 0.5%? Instead of just telling us that the management costs are expected to be lower, can the member point to any studies clearly showing that such costs for this program will really be lower?

[English]

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Mrs. Cathy McLeod:

Mr. Speaker, we know that when we create economies of scale and people pool their retirement programs together, there is an opportunity. This would be a large-scale competitive environment and certainly very different than the RRSP option. It is a great opportunity for a lower fee option.

The other important thing is that many employers have told me that they would actually use this, especially the ones having difficulty with recruitment. Having an opportunity to offer this as a benefit to their employees they see as a real positive and a benefit that will not be a headache for small business owners. I think of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business which very solidly supported us moving forward. It is a great additional option for employers and employees.

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Mr. Pierre Poilievre (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities and for the Federal Economic Development Agency for Southern Ontario, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, I am looking over the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board. The NDP has risen again and again to claim support of CPP. I am looking at the holdings within CPP and I find that the CPP Investment Board has invested the savings of Canadians in the company TransCanada Pipelines. That is the same company that was going to build the Keystone pipeline that the NDP opposes. It is just one more example of how the NDP's attack on business is actually an attack on the CPP, which holds so many of these businesses in its portfolio.

I wonder if the hon. member would be prepared to comment on that.

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Mrs. Cathy McLeod:

Mr. Speaker, that is a very important part on which I need to expand. Not only is it the CPP but it is the many pension plans across this country. Whether it is the teachers' pension plan or the municipal pension plans, they all rely on investments in the banks, oil companies and companies that generate profit and pay dividends. Having a low tax plan actually adds to the profits companies make, the dividends they pay out and the retirement security of all our seniors.

[Translation]

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Mr. Guy Caron (Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House today to debate Bill C-25, which, as we know, is about setting up a pooled registered pension plan. This is an important issue today for the future economic security of retirees. Many members have talked about the 12 million Canadians who do not have a workplace pension plan. We have to deal with this issue.

However, the NDP—myself included—believes that the government's proposed solution is a very bad idea. It will distract us from good solutions, and we will end up with a program that does not meet its stated objectives. Let me explain why.

So far, many members have talked about how the economic crisis highlighted the weakness and vulnerability of private pension plans. I am well aware of this because, in my previous life, before becoming an MP, I dealt with very sensitive situations where pensions were at stake, such as the AbitibiBowater employees' pension. Now other companies, such as White Birch, are having problems. In those workplaces, pensions are typically defined benefit plans, not defined contribution plans. These are real pensions that provide economic security, but the present economic climate is undermining that security.

That is what is happening to the Canada pension plan, a defined benefit plan that provides people with economic security because they know how much they will get once they stop working. With defined contribution plans, people do not know how much they will get. That is up to market fluctuations, and it is one of the weaknesses of the government's proposal.

The government often says things to suggest that it accepts the argument that the public pension plans are solid and secure programs; these include the Canada pension plan, old age security and the guaranteed income supplement. It is essential to provide Canadians and Quebeckers with economic security, but the pooled registered pension plan proposed by the government does not do that.

Before getting into the major shortcomings of the proposed pooled pension plan, I would like to address one of the arguments that has been raised many times since the beginning of the debate: that we have no choice but to move in this direction because the provinces have refused—the necessary consent was not given by two-thirds of the provinces. That argument is a fallacy.

I followed the issue when I was in my previous position and I also followed the Kananaskis meeting where this was discussed. I would like my colleagues to refer to an article from the Globe and Mail that was written on the eve of the Kananaskis meeting. I will read it in English because the article is in English.

[English]

Provinces are planning to fight for enhancements to the Canada Pension Plan at a key meeting on Monday, setting up a showdown with the [federal] government over how Canadians will fund their retirements.

Just days before federal and provincial finance ministers meet in Kananaskis, Ottawa made a surprise move to reject CPP enhancements for now in favour of a new privately run savings vehicle.

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[Translation]

Ontario's finance minister, who is quoted in this Globe and Mail article, said he did not think the provinces would oppose it. In the same article, the only province to oppose improving the Canada pension plan was Alberta. It was possible to get approval from nine provinces at that time. Since the government announced that the option of improving the Canada pension plan was not on the table, the provinces wanted to try to make the meeting worthwhile by proposing any option that might seem like progress. That is what is being proposed right now. To say that we have no choice but to take this direction because the provinces have said no is a fallacy. It is not true. It is baloney.

The Canada pension plan has several major flaws. Now we are talking about another voluntary plan. It will be introduced in a workplace and it will be optional. People will be able to opt out if they want. In other words, it will be a voluntary program. Tons of voluntary programs already exist, including group RRSPs and the more recent TFSAs. Both of these plans offer tax incentives to encourage Canadians to invest. Yet only 30% of Canadians invest in RRSPs, despite the significant financial incentives. It costs the federal government a fortune in tax expenditures. So why do only 30% of Canadians invest in RRSPs? Why do 70% of Canadians not invest? Because they do not have enough disposable income to do so.

I can also talk about TFSAs. Some 40% of Canadians invested in TFSAs last year. Half of that 40% earn $100,000 or more a year. For them, this program in another tax loophole. In the end, over 60% of Canadians are not investing in TFSAs, despite the advantages of the program, because they do not have the disposable income needed to invest. So, there is a good chance that low-income employees will not have enough incentive to participate in the proposed program because they need all of their income to meet their basic needs. Many of the employees who have the program available to them will opt out for that reason. The reason many voluntary programs do not work, despite tax incentives, is because people need to have enough money to invest.

We compared the management fees of the program proposed by the government to those of the Canada pension plan. Management fees associated with the CPP are less than 0.5%. Private plans, such as mutual funds, are also a form of pooled investment, since everyone has a share of the overall envelope in a mutual fund. The largest mutual funds do not benefit from any economy of scale. Management fees range from 2% to 2.5%. This may not seem like much but when a mutual fund generates a return of 3% to 3.5%, the 2% to 2.5% in management fees must be deducted from it. If the Canada pension plan delivers the same return as a mutual fund, only 0.5% must be deducted. Thus, the Canada pension plan already provides a return that is 2% greater than private plans like the one the Conservative government wants to implement.

As a side note, the Canada pension plan delivered a return of 15% in 2010 and 12% in 2011. On average, private plans in Canada delivered a return of 10.5% in 2010—from which 2% to 2.5% must be deducted—and 0.5% in 2011. We are talking about a total cumulative return of 27% over the past two years for the Canada pension plan and a return of only 11% for private plans. If there are any doubts about the effectiveness of the Canada pension plan as compared to private plans in the past two years, a time of economic uncertainty, this fact should dispel them.

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With respect to economies of scale and management fees, Australia has a super fund very similar to what the government is proposing. About 10 years after setting up the super fund, Australians discovered that there were no economies of scale and that management fees were the same as for private funds, such as mutual funds.

I have already briefly addressed the third element, defined contributions.

Fourth, this distracts us from the real solution that the NDP has proposed: enhancing the Canada pension plan. Gradual premium increases would make it possible to double benefits, thereby ensuring a secure retirement for Canadians. That would be a true financial security program.

I do not have enough time to point out all the advantages of this solution. I hope that someone will ask me a question about that in the next five minutes. This is the right solution. This solution would also provide economic stability because beneficiaries would spend their bigger pension cheques. After all, they no longer need to save. The money would be reinvested in the economy to play a major role in battling economic uncertainty and fuelling the economy.

That makes our solution far better than the vague one the Conservatives have proposed.

[English]

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Ms. Kirsty Duncan (Etobicoke North, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for his speech. It was nice to hear his history and his expertise.

PRPPs are all about pensions, so I would like to talk about the broader issue.

Thomas Klassen is a York University political scientist and a leading Canadian on pension reform. He says that the OAS will not cause the federal budget to crash.

Ed Whitehouse, who researches pension policy for the World Bank and who was asked by Ottawa to study and report on how Canada stacks up, said:

--Canada does not face major challenges of financial sustainability with its public pension schemes...there is no pressing financial or fiscal need to increase pension ages in the foreseeable future.

Does the hon. member think that people should be able to expect the rules under which they made their retirement plans will still be in place when they retire?

[Translation]

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Mr. Guy Caron:

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for the very pertinent question.

The examples she has provided are pertinent and corroborated by the findings of the Chief Actuary of Canada. There is no public pension crisis in Canada: the Canada pension plan, old age security and the guaranteed income supplement are not in jeopardy. In fact, if there is a crisis, it is that old age security, in particular the guaranteed income supplement, does not meet the needs of our seniors who are currently having trouble making ends meet.

My colleague is right to say that there is no crisis. The examples she has provided in this regard are all factual. When we talk about old age pensions, as mentioned by the Prime Minister in Davos, we are talking about an increase equivalent to 1.7% to 2.4% of gross domestic product at the height of the demographic crisis that is looming. Consequently, no change is needed and the Chief Actuary of Canada is in agreement. If we must review these programs, we should do so not as a budget exercise to reduce the deficit built up by this government, but in order to help the most disadvantaged retirees.

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Ms. Rosane Doré Lefebvre (Alfred-Pellan, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for his magnificent speech. It was very interesting.

He ended his speech by talking about some of the advantages of the Canada pension plan and the Quebec pension plan, and the benefits of investing in such plans. He did not have time to speak further about this. I would like to hear more about this matter. It seems very interesting.

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Mr. Guy Caron:

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for giving me the opportunity to speak to this issue.

The NDP plan is quite simple. It aims to double Canada pension plan benefits with minimal increases to the contributions. We are generally talking about an increase of 0.43% in employer contributions and 0.43% in employee contributions over seven years. A former chief actuary of the Canada pension plan said that from an actuarial point of view, it was a good solution and it could double the benefits with minimum impact on the private sector and employees.

I have heard the arguments that the Canadian Federation of Independent Business has made repeatedly. The arguments are quite interesting, but not very logical. We are talking about an increase for the employee of 9 cents an hour a year for seven years. That is not a lot. That amounts to a $3.47 increase a week for seven years. Even for a small business, that is not a lot.

The Canadian Federation of Independent Business fails to mention the economic spinoffs of this measure. If Canada pension plan and Quebec pension plan benefits were doubled, the money would be reinvested in the economy. The little money the businesses would pay to improve the benefits would be reinvested in those same businesses. There could be economic growth that would strengthen the businesses, including small and medium-sized businesses. In that sense, it is the best solution for the economy and for retirees.

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[English]

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Mr. Mike Wallace (Burlington, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, it is my honour to speak to Bill C-25. I welcome everyone back in the new year and I welcome those who are watching at home. It is hard to believe that people do watch the debates at home but I have two grandmothers who actually watch so I want to say hello to my grandmothers and wish them a happy new year if they happen to be watching today.

I want to talk a bit about how we got here today and why Bill C-25, the pooled registered pension plan, is important. I had the opportunity, as a Conservative member on the finance committee over the last five years in the previous Parliaments, to be part of finance and we did an extensive study on pensions. It took a number of months and, out of that study, came a number of issues, one of which was a pooled registered pension plan. Business, labour and individual business owners were coming to our committee and asking us to look at the possibility of being part of that group of those who were eligible for pensions. As has been previously mentioned, about 60% of people do not have access to pensions. They were looking for an opportunity to have access to a pension plan.

Out of that, we recognized the issue that pensions play, not just currently but in the future. The Prime Minister had the foresight to take the parliamentary secretary at the time and make him a Minister of State for Finance with a focus on pensions. We are the only government in Canada's history that has a focused ministry on that particular item. We care about our seniors, our future seniors and where this country is going in terms of the demographic. We need to be on top of the pension plans and retirement issues that are facing this country, which is why the Prime Minister has dedicated a ministry to that effect. So that is how we got here today.

Who asked for it? Members have heard over and over again from my colleagues on this side of the House about the small business organizations that have come to see us to talk about why they need access to a pension plan. One reason is that it is good for their employees. There is no doubt that having access to a pension plan and having some planning in terms of eventual retirement are important. However, as the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Revenue previously said, it is also important for retention and attraction of employees. It is very difficult for small and medium size businesses to compete with large businesses that have pension plans and other benefit programs to attract high-quality employees. One of the things small business representatives told us at committee was that they needed a pension plan that would help them, not only retain their great employees but to help them attract new employees to their industry or business. A pooled registered pension plan would allow that to happen.

I want to remind members of the House and those watching that we are at second reading. What we are trying to do today is move this from the House to committee. With the three days that we have allocated for second reading, we have 42 speakers in 42 time slots. The bill then goes to committee so we can discuss the individual issues. We can have witnesses come to talk to us about what components are working, what needs to be changed and what can be improved. That is what we are doing today.

However, let us look at the components. One is the low cost. I have heard my colleagues across the way ask how we can guarantee it would be low cost. I am a member of OMERS as I used to be a municipal employee. OMERS now has the ability to allow me to have my own independent investments through RRSP managed by it. Why does it tell me it is a good idea? First, it is a good investor. It has a good group of people managing it as a third party and they are smarter than me on the investment piece.

Second, because of the numbers OMERS has, there are lower costs than for me to invest individually in RRSPs. It is a pooled system that OMERS is offering to members for other investments that it will manage at a lower cost. This is exactly what the pooled registered pension plans would do. It is large pools of revenue that it is able to invest at a lower cost because it has a larger pool to deal from. it knows that is coming.

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Another piece that is vitally important here and that people seem to be missing the point on is this. They are saying that it is just another RRSP. However, people voluntarily put money into an RRSP, whereas if a company has a pooled retirement pension plan, people are automatically enrolled in it. They would have to withdraw from that plan. It is just like the CPP, in which people are automatically enrolled. Someone has to make a personal investment decision as an individual employee to withdraw, otherwise that person is in the plan.

Frankly, I think it is a better way to go to have people automatically enrolled in the program. Then they at least have to look at their investment plan and make a decision on their own. For lots of people, my neighbours and I included, making investment plans and decisions can be difficult. It is often much more practical, efficient and appropriate to leave it to a third party to do. People will be enrolled in this plan and will be saving for their retirement. Someone would have to decide not to save for their retirement to get out of a pooled retirement pension plan. That is a fundamental difference with an RRSP, which we have heard lots about.

Portability is another important issue I want to talk about. In a pooled retirement pension plan, if someone leaves a company to go to another one, that person can continue to have those retirement benefits in the pooled plan.

Let us be honest, if they leave one company to go another and do not contribute to the plan as a new employee, the company will lose that employee's contribution. That is true, and that is a choice people will make when they change jobs. They will have to look at the benefits they are going to get, including the opportunity for retirement, all of which will be part of that pension plan decision and the reasons they might move. At least it is portable and people will not lose those benefits, as they can move from one company to another.

The final thing I want to talk about is that it would effectively be available to everyone. Right now large corporations have some sort of contribution plan. Some have a defined pension plan, which I know is becoming increasingly rare. However, larger firms seem to be able to have contribution plans, as they can afford the management costs and they have HR departments to look after those types of things.

The largest employer in my riding of Burlington employs 600 people. The vast majority of the thousands of people who work in my riding work in small- and medium-sized businesses or sole proprietorships. All three will now have the ability to join a pooled registered pension plan, an option not available now.

Finally, I want to say this. We have heard lots about the government not boosting the CPP. The parliamentary secretary who spoke before me talked about it. Let us deal with the facts: the facts are that we need the agreement of two-thirds of the provinces, with two-thirds of the population, to actually make a change. We cannot disrespect the provinces and premiers. If they do not want to move on the CPP issue, we do not have the right or legislative ability to override their decision.

However, we do have agreement to move forward with a pooled registered pension plan program. All the provinces, at different levels, will have to have their own legislation. We have been clear about that. We will have to have legislation here, and the provinces will have to have legislation. We have commitments for that to happen. That is why we are moving forward.

We can talk about CPP, as we have as a government with our counterparts at the provincial level, until we are blue in the face, and I do not mean Tory blue, but mean regular blue. However, it will not happen without the provinces' agreement. We will continue those discussions because CPP is an important pillar, an important tool, for the retirement of everyone who is working.

Nonetheless, we need to find other tools. This is one that we have agreement on, and this is one that the business community is interested in. I even had 50 people at my house on Friday night discussing pooled retirement pension plans. These people were asking if they would qualify.

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This is something we need to do. We have 42 time slots for discussion. Let us get the bill to committee. If members have problems with this legislation, they can bring their issues forward there. Let us move forward and do something for Canadians, as our NDP friends claim they like to do but never do. We are doing it.

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Mike Sullivan (York South—Weston, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, having 50 people talking about pooled registered retirement savings plans seems strange for that party.

Has the member opposite been listening to the debate and the comments of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport, who said several times that reducing tax cuts to already profitable corporations will hurt already profitable businesses by reducing their profits? Yet the Minister of Finance has told us that these tax cuts for already profitable corporations were to create jobs. The government cannot have it both ways. The money cannot be used to create jobs and to raise profits. Which one is it? Why are we harping on this?

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Mike Wallace:

Mr. Speaker, I have been listening to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport here and in my office.

My colleague is absolutely right. We do not understand why the NDP does not understand that pensions, including the CPP, are funded by investments in the marketplace. In fact there is a board that looks after the public service retirement plan and invests in the marketplace.

If we hurt businesses trying to do well in the marketplace by adding to their tax burden, they will be less profitable, less able to contribute, and it will hurt pensioners.

I do not know why those members are afraid to understand that the marketplace will help create value in pensions, which will eventually be returned to those who collect those pensions.

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Francis Scarpaleggia (Lac-Saint-Louis, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, there is one thing I do not understand about this plan. If a company has excess resources to offer its employees via a pension plan to which it would contribute, why would it not just call in a company like London Life and have it create a group plan?

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Pierre Poilievre:

That is what this does.

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Ted Menzies:

At 3%.

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Francis Scarpaleggia:

It can already be done, Mr. Speaker. Therefore, my second question is about the following.

If an individual has some money to invest for retirement, he or she can go to the bank and buy a mutual fund and the risk in that mutual fund will be spread out over thousands of people in the market. The individual can choose a very low risk mutual fund or a GIC.

I just do not understand why this proposal is so special.

(1355)

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Mike Wallace:

Mr. Speaker, the plan is special for one particular reason, which those members seem to miss. If a business belongs to a pooled registered plan, employees are required to opt out if they do not want to be part of the plan. I do not want to use the word “force“, but it requires them to participate. An employee has to opt out.

First, individuals who have not been thinking about their retirement may not go to a bank and invest in an RRSP. Second, the RRSP system is very expensive. Canada has one of the highest cost RRSP systems of any nation in the world. However, with a large pooled system, the costs can be lowered, which will add to the pension amounts people will be able to collect after they retire. That is why having a pooled system is better than individuals doing it on their own.

[Table of Contents]

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bruce Stanton):

Before I recognize the hon. member for Vancouver Centre for resuming debate, I will let her know that I will need to interrupt her speech at about 2 o'clock for the commencement of members' statements.

Resuming debate. The hon. member for Vancouver Centre.

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Hedy Fry (Vancouver Centre, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, I am really glad to stand in the House and speak about Bill C-25 and its pooled pension plan. I know everyone has had various emotional and other responses to it, but first and foremost, I have to be cynical. I suggest that the government is playing games with Canadians' financial security when they retire.

It is playing games because we know that its own consultant, who has been working with the OECD and the World Bank on pensions, has said very clearly that there is no crisis with the OAS at the moment, that in fact we do not need to raise the retirement age at the moment and that we are one of a few OECD countries with the lowest investment in public pensions. Accordingly, there is room for us to look at how we would invest in a public vehicle to help Canadians who cannot afford to retire.

A game is going on here. In the last election we know that the Prime Minister promised the government would not cut transfers to health, education and to individuals. However, it is obvious what a difference a few months and a majority government will make to promises made and promises broken. Slashing health transfers, attacking old age security and raising the retirement age to 67, I can only name as a few of those broken pre-election promises.

I listened yesterday to members on the other side talking about how we must respect the provinces, that we must listen to the provinces and not tell them what to do. I suggest that perhaps the government should heed its own advice to us when the provinces ask it to hold a premiers' conference on health and it does not listen to them. When the provinces tell the government it cannot unilaterally decide without consultation to cut transfers, the government is not listening to them. It is the same when the government forces the provinces to pay for the cost of its omnibus crime bill as well. One cannot speak out of both sides of one's mouth, but the government manages to do it quite well.

When government first announced it was looking at Canadians' retirement security in January 2009, it agreed it would look at expanding the public vehicle, the Canada pension plan, as the way to go, and that it would seek agreement from the provinces. That was not impossible. In the mid-1990s, when the Liberal government looked at the CPP and all provinces were getting very worried about retirement pensions, the Liberal government talked to the provinces. We built trust and listened and looked at securing the CPP for 75 years. The CPP was secured for 75 years, and that was done with the provinces. It is a very secure vehicle that we can now look at as we try to help Canadians to retire with some dignity and some comfort, instead of looking at a private pension scheme as the first tool in the toolbox.

(1400)

[Table of Contents]

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bruce Stanton):

When we next resume debate on this matter, the member for Vancouver Centre will have six and a half minutes remaining for her speech and five minutes for questions and comments.

STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS

[Statements by Members]

* * *

[English]

Universities and Colleges

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Rod Bruinooge (Winnipeg South, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House today in recognition of an important day for parliamentarians. Today many of us have been, and will be, visited by university and college presidents from across Canada. They are joined on Parliament Hill by the Association of Universities and Colleges Canada in celebration of university partnerships that drive Canada's innovation.

As a $30 billion enterprise in direct expenditures alone, universities are significant drivers of economic prosperity in communities across Canada. In 2010, 272,000 people were directly employed by universities, and thousands more worked both on and off campus to supply services to students, faculty and institutions.

As chair of the government's post-secondary education caucus, I ask members to join me in welcoming university and college presidents to Parliament Hill today and thanking them for the important work they do to better our communities and the lives of so many students.

* * *

Pensions

[Table of Contents]

Mrs. Carol Hughes (Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, New Democrats have been stating loud and clear that we need to lift more seniors out of poverty. In last spring's election we presented to Canadians specific proposals to do just that, but it is becoming apparent that the Conservatives hid their plan to attack pensions.

It is easy to understand why the Prime Minister had to go offshore to make his latest statement in the Conservatives' war on pensions. I can guarantee he would not have received a good reception for his message in places like Elliot Lake, Hearst, Manitouwadge, or anywhere in Canada.

Raising Canada's retirement age will unfairly punish those Canadians who want to retire at age 65 but need some help from OAS to make that possible. It amounts to punishing the vulnerable in our society and is anything but fair.

If the Prime Minister is looking to save money, he should cast his gaze at the billions in corporate tax giveaways that his government so carelessly hands out despite the evidence that shows they do nothing to create jobs in Canada.

New Democrats will continue to work with seniors and the organizations that represent them to fight these mean-spirited changes. We want to strengthen pensions, not weaken them.

* * *

Alzheimer's Awareness Month

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Ron Cannan (Kelowna—Lake Country, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, it was an honour this past weekend to cut the ribbon to officially start the annual Alzheimer Society of B.C. Walk for Memories in my riding of Kelowna--Lake Country. The walk raises funds, awareness and support for those 500,000-plus Canadians, 70,000 in B.C., suffering from Alzheimer's and other forms of dementia.

Almost 20% of our population in the Okanagan is 65 years of age or older, and the sad reality is that after the age of 65 the odds of developing Alzheimer's doubles every five years.

Many thanks to walk chair, Laura Cochrane, and her dedicated team of volunteers, the Old Time Fiddlers, the Lions Club, and the many sponsors who made this event a success. A very special thanks to Jennifer Hamilton, our support and education coordinator in Kelowna, who cares for the caregivers so that they may provide compassionate support to their loved ones suffering from Alzheimer's and dementia.

With everyone working together, there is hope for a cure. We should remember to live each day to its fullest and to cherish our memories.

* * *

Alzheimer's Awareness Month

[Table of Contents]

Hon. Hedy Fry (Vancouver Centre, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, January is Alzheimer's Awareness Month. Five hundred thousand Canadians live with this progressive degenerative disease that destroys brain cells. The number of Canadians suffering from Alzheimer's is expected to double in the next 20 years.

Groundbreaking research is being done by organizations like Baycrest in Toronto in an attempt to understand the underlying causes of Alzheimer's and how to delay its onset.

It is important to recognize the early signs of Alzheimer's, including personality change, mood change, disorientation of time and place, and difficulty performing familiar tasks. Early identification of Alzheimer's is critical to delay its onset.

Alzheimer's puts enormous emotional stress on millions of Canadian families. It costs our health care system billions of dollars a year. If we could delay the onset for as little as two years we could save the system $219 billion over 30 years.

Investing in research and prevention would not only give us savings, but it would improve the quality of lives for many individuals and families in Canada.

* * *

(1405)

Skin Cancer

[Table of Contents]

Mr. James Bezan (Selkirk—Interlake, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, this Saturday is World Cancer Day.

Fifty-five hundred Canadians are diagnosed with melanoma every year and 950 will die from it. An additional 74,000 cases of non-melanoma skin cancers are expected annually, of which 270 Canadians will die.

To escape the winter, many Canadians are heading south to sunny destinations. I urge them to protect their skin, their body's biggest organ. They should stay in the shade when outdoors, cover up, and use sunscreen.

Many Canadians will also crawl into tanning beds to get their base tans. I cannot stress enough how harmful this equipment is. The World Health Organization has moved tanning beds to the highest cancer risk category, carcinogenic to humans.

I recently tabled a private member's bill to tackle the health risks caused by tanning salons. Among other restrictions, my bill would prohibit anyone under the age of 18 years from using tanning beds. Studies have shown that using tanning beds at a young age increases the risk of skin cancer by over 75%.

I encourage all members to support my bill to restrict the use of tanning beds and increase public awareness about skin cancer prevention.

* * *

[Translation]

Search and Rescue

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Jonathan Tremblay (Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, the closure of the search and rescue centre in Quebec City is unacceptable for the Quebec City area and for the people in my riding.

The centre opened 30 years ago for two main reasons: first, to put in place staff who know the local region, which is crucial in deploying appropriate resources and guiding them effectively on the ground, and second, to provide efficient service in French.

As mentioned by a Coast Guard officer, hostile conditions make it very difficult for shipwrecked individuals to clearly express the details of the dangers they face.

Damaged equipment, shouting and violent winds require staff to be fully fluent in French.

The St. Lawrence is considered to be one of the most complex waterways in the world. Losing this expertise is unthinkable.

All Quebeckers from eastern Quebec to Trois-Rivières are worried. This was a budgetary decision that will put many lives in danger on both shores of the St. Lawrence.

* * *

[English]

Law Enforcement Officers

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Blaine Calkins (Wetaskiwin, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, I rise today in the House to remind Canadians of the courageous men and women who serve as law enforcement officers across our great country. This was brought to mind in my riding of Wetaskiwin on December 4, 2011, when two members of the RCMP emergency response team were wounded after exchanging gunfire in a standoff at a remote rural house near Breton, Alberta. This is just another example of the risks that law enforcement officers face on the front lines every day.

Peace officers of all jurisdictions from across the country provide an invaluable service to all Canadians. These officers have dedicated their lives to uphold the law and protect those who are threatened by criminals, and every day their families wait anxiously for the safe return of their loved ones once work is done.

Our government is committed to ensuring criminals are held fully accountable for their actions and that the safety and security of law-abiding citizens and victims come first in Canada's justice system, but it is our law enforcement officers who are on the front line, standing courageously between law-abiding citizens and those who would pose a danger. It takes a special kind of person to do that.

I know all members in the House today will join me in thanking these brave officers who were wounded, Corporal Peter King and Staff Sergeant Patrick McIsaac, and wish them a speedy and full recovery.

* * *

Don Blenkarn

[Table of Contents]

Mrs. Stella Ambler (Mississauga South, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, with profound sadness, I learned this morning of the passing of Don Blenkarn, who served for 16 years as the Conservative member of Parliament in Mississauga from 1972 to 1974 and 1979 to 1993.

Don was a friend and mentor to me in my political efforts and I have cherished his advice on how to be a good MP for the people of Mississauga South. He advised me to work hard, knock on lots of doors and never forget the people we serve. Not known for his subtlety, Don was known for his laugh, his caring big heart, sense of fun, and his somewhat controversial statements.

My thoughts and prayers are with Don's wife, Marguerite, and his family. Don's life was filled with the love of a devoted family, the camaraderie of many friends, and the gratitude of the thousands of people he served.

Donald Alex Blenkarn, Q.C., was a true community leader, a true parliamentarian and a true friend. May he rest in peace.

* * *

The ROMEOs

[Table of Contents]

Ms. Irene Mathyssen (London—Fanshawe, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, I want to share with you a wonderful example of community in my riding. There is a group of retired veterans who call themselves the ROMEOs, retired old men eating out. They meet every Wednesday morning at the Scotian Isle and are graciously hosted by Pat, John and Joseph McDonald.

The ROMEOs served together in the Canadian Forces in the 1950s. This is how they keep in touch, how they look out for one another, and keep up the friendships they established while serving Canada. I meet with the ROMEOs whenever possible. The conversation is always enlightening and the men, as everyone may have expected, are profoundly charming. I get to hear their stories, their struggles and their triumphs. I come away from these breakfasts with a sense of how important community is to our veterans and our seniors. It is community that enriches our lives and gives us security when we need it most.

Thanks to the ROMEOs and thanks to the Scotian Isle.

* * *

(1410)

[Translation]

Quebec Winter Carnival

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Jacques Gourde (Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, I would like you to come and meet one of the greatest ambassadors for Quebeckers' joie de vivre. He is the symbol of a festival he has represented since 1955. Many members will have guessed that I am speaking about the Quebec winter carnival's Bonhomme Carnaval.

I invite my colleagues to attend the 58th Quebec winter carnival. Activities are already under way, and you will not want to miss the night parades on February 4 and 11, for which our oldest Quebec carnival is renowned.

This spectacular event includes floats, dance troops and bands, among other things.

Young and old festival goers can choose from no fewer than 250 activities and events.

I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the president and his entire team.

I invite everyone to enjoy this outdoor festival by participating in some of the activities that will be held until February 12.

* * *

Jean Bosco Centre in Maniwaki

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Mathieu Ravignat (Pontiac, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, clearly the Conservatives do not care about the ridings that did not vote for them. This heartless government abandoned a very important project in the Pontiac riding. The Jean Bosco centre in Maniwaki, a social and occupational integration centre for people with disabilities, was promised assistance prior to the 2011 election, only to be punished when the riding did not vote for the right party. The centre has been rebuffed by this arrogant government.

The Jean Bosco centre meets all the criteria. The community raised over a million dollars and invested a great deal of time in the project. Since five projects have been selected—none of which are in Quebec and three of which are in Conservative ridings—and there are still program funds remaining, I am asking the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development, who has been completely ignoring our letters and questions, to rise above partisanship and agree to this request. We are talking about people with disabilities and a centre that serves more than 18 municipalities in the Vallée-de-la-Gatineau.

Frankly, the minister and this government should be ashamed of themselves.

* * *

[English]

Iran

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Costas Menegakis (Richmond Hill, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, today our government announced expanded sanctions against Iran in an effort to further apply pressure to a regime that both undermines regional and global security and regularly turns a blind eye to its international human rights obligations.

We are deeply concerned by reports of an increase in arrests and death sentences in Iran, including that of Iranian citizen Saeed Malekpour, who now faces imminent execution on the sham charges of spreading corruption. Sadly, Saeed's case is but one example of the regime's utter disregard for human rights and its failure to meet internationally recognized norms of due process and transparency.

Canada will hold Iran accountable for Mr. Malekpour's treatment. We have been actively speaking out and raising his case with the Iranian authorities.

We call on Iran to reverse its current course, meet its international human rights obligations and release prisoners such as Saeed Malekpour and others who have failed to receive fair and transparent legal treatment.

* * *

Children's Breakfast Club

[Table of Contents]

Ms. Kirsty Duncan (Etobicoke North, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, tomorrow is the beginning of Black History Month, recognizing the innumerable achievements and contributions of black Canadians who have helped build our country.

To mark this occasion, some 50 awesome children from the Children's Breakfast Club, which serves 4,000 meals a week in Toronto, are visiting Parliament Hill. The club was formed to ensure that children leave for school feeling good about themselves and enable them to be successful at school.

The group is accompanied by prominent members from the community who have made valuable contributions to Toronto, Ontario and Canada, including our former colleague, the Hon. Jean Augustine, Ontario's Fairness Commissioner, and Richard Gosling, the president and founder of the Children's Breakfast Club.

I ask my colleagues to join us for a reception with these terrific children, our future, at the Government Conference Centre, at 3:15 p.m., and celebrate our culture, heroes and history.

* * *

(1415)

Afghanistan

[Table of Contents]

Mrs. Shelly Glover (Saint Boniface, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, recently there have been reports that a young woman in Afghanistan was murdered by her own family simply for giving birth to a baby girl.

All too often, the women in Afghanistan pay a severe price simply for being women. Their most basic rights are overlooked, neglected and abused.

[Translation]

That is why Canada supports a range of projects in Afghanistan. We want to strengthen the rights of women and girls, make it easier for them to access education and health care, encourage their political involvement and enhance the economic opportunities available to them.

On behalf of all Canadians, this government is maintaining our commitment to make a difference in the lives of women and girls in Afghanistan.

* * *

The Conservative Government

[Table of Contents]

Mr. Alexandre Boulerice (Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, Parliament just resumed yesterday and already the Conservatives' bad political choices have emerged: closure motions, massive cuts to public services, a complete lack of transparency and threats to seniors who now fear losing their entire life savings.

For six years now, the Conservatives have been promising that they will change how things are done in Ottawa, but instead Canadians are treated to ministers who waste taxpayers' money as though it were Monopoly money and ministers who sell out to oil lobbyists and call anyone who dares to speak out a radical.

Canadians deserve better. They want a government that listens, a government that stops rewarding large corporations that do not create jobs here in Canada. They want a government that takes action on climate change, a government that protects pension plans and works with the provinces to improve health care.

Canadians and Quebeckers have put their trust in the NDP to force the Conservatives to be accountable. The economic situation remains fragile. It is high time this government pulled its head out of the sand and protected people who lose their job.

* * *

[English]

Pensions

[Table of Contents]

Ms. Wai Young (Vancouver South, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, while the member for Burnaby—New Westminster is criticizing government, I must remind the House that even he, the NDP's temporary finance critic, acknowledged pressures on the viability of OAS. Events around the world and our aging population make it clear that governments need to make responsible decisions to ensure social programs remain sustainable.

Our government is reviewing measures to protect Canadian pensions in the long term. We will implement any changes fairly, allowing lots of time for notice and time to adjust.

We have made it clear to Canadians that people currently receiving OAS will not lose one penny. In fact, the National Post gets it with its front page headline today, “Tories on the right side of pension reform”.

The real trouble lies with the NDP and the Liberal plans for reckless spending and higher taxes. Their plans will kill jobs and threaten Canadians' future retirement pensions.

Oral Questions

[Oral Questions]

* * *

[English]

Aboriginal Affairs

[Table of Contents]

Mrs. Nycole Turmel (Leader of the Opposition, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, I just met with National Chief Shawn Atleo as a follow-up to the crown-first nations gathering held exactly one week ago.

Could the Prime Minister inform the House of the specific steps his government will take to honour commitments made to first nations last week? Would he provide us a timeline for implementation of those commitments? Also, will there be action in the upcoming budget for first nations?

[Table of Contents]

Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC):

Mr. Speaker, first, I thought the crown-first nations gathering, which was historic, was a very successful gathering. I certainly congratulate the national chief for his vision which brought that gathering about.

At the same time, coming out of that gathering was a statement put out by the government and by the Assembly of First Nations on an action plan regarding economic development, education and a number of other matters. I would draw the attention of the leader of the NDP to that action plan.

In the meantime, in all budgets, we have done things for aboriginal peoples. This time I would hope the NDP would actually vote for them instead of against them.

* * *

Pensions

[Table of Contents]

Mrs. Nycole Turmel (Leader of the Opposition, NDP):

Mr. Speaker, seniors are worried about their future, but they are also worried about the future of their children and their grandchildren. Yes, they will not retire for a long time. We know that. However, today seniors know too well how difficult it can be to mak