Edited Hansard * Table of Contents * Number 003 (Official Version)

37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 003

CONTENTS

Wednesday, October 2, 2002

1400

The Speaker

STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS

The Environment

Ms. Phinney

Softwood Lumber

Mr. Lunn

American Hellenic Educational Progressive Association

Ms. Folco

1405

Eaux Vives Harricana

Mr. St-Julien

National Memorial Day

Mr. Myers

Hay West Campaign

Mrs. Skelton

Member for Haldimand—Norfolk—Brant

Ms. Bulte

Caoutchouc Crosston

Ms. Picard

1410

Marine Conservation

Mr. Adams

Aboriginal Affairs

Mr. Pallister

Sri Lanka

Mr. Cotler

Housing

Ms. Davies

Speech from the Throne

Mr. Loubier

1415

Women's History Month

Mr. Malhi

Justice

Mr. MacKay

Prime Minister

Ms. Bennett

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

Iraq

Mr. Harper

Mr. Chrétien

Mr. Harper

1420

Mr. Chrétien

Mr. Harper

Mr. Chrétien

Mr. Day

Mr. Graham (Toronto Centre—Rosedale)

The Speaker

Mr. Day

The Speaker

Mr. Graham (Toronto Centre—Rosedale)

Mr. Duceppe

1425

Mr. Chrétien

Mr. Duceppe

Mr. Chrétien

Ms. Lalonde

Mr. Chrétien

Ms. Lalonde

Mr. Chrétien

Ms. McDonough

Mr. Chrétien

Ms. McDonough

1430

Mr. Chrétien

Kyoto Protocol

Mr. Clark

Mr. Chrétien

Mr. Herron

Mr. Chrétien

Finance

Mr. Penson

Mr. Manley

Mr. Penson

Mr. Manley

1435

Kyoto Protocol

Mr. Bigras

Mr. Chrétien

Mr. Bigras

Mr. Chrétien

Government Expenditures

Mr. Ritz

Mr. Goodale

Mr. Ritz

Mr. Goodale

Supply Management

Mr. Plamondon

1440

Mr. Pettigrew

Mr. Plamondon

Mr. Pettigrew

Kyoto Protocol

Mr. Mills (Red Deer)

Mr. Anderson (Victoria)

The Speaker

Mr. Anderson (Victoria)

Mr. Mills (Red Deer)

Mr. Anderson (Victoria)

1445

Iraq

Mr. Bagnell

Mr. Graham (Toronto Centre—Rosedale)

The Speaker

Softwood Lumber

Mr. Masse

Mr. Pettigrew

Foreign Affairs

Mr. Robinson

Mr. Graham (Toronto Centre—Rosedale)

The Speaker

National Revenue

Mr. Casey

Ms. Caplan

1450

Mr. Casey

Ms. Caplan

Coast Guard

Mr. Cummins

Mr. Thibault

Mr. Cummins

Mr. Thibault

Government Contracts

Mr. Lanctôt

Mr. Goodale

Mr. Lanctôt

1455

Mr. Goodale

Airline Security

Mr. Moore

Mr. Manley

Mr. Moore

Mr. Manley

Foreign Affairs

Mr. Lastewka

Mr. Knutson (Elgin—Middlesex—London)

Canada-U.S. Border

Ms. Meredith

Ms. Caplan

Ms. Meredith

1500

Mr. Manley

Highway Infrastructure

Mr. Laframboise

Mr. Collenette

Aboriginal Affairs

Mr. Pallister

Mr. Nault

Softwood Lumber

Mr. Bergeron

Mr. Manley

1505

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

Order in Council Appointments

Mr. Regan

Government Response to Petitions

Mr. Regan

Interparliamentary Delegations

Mr. Price

Mr. Patry

Mr. Comuzzi

Whistle Blower Human Rights Act

Mr. Grewal

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

1510

The Speaker

Canada Health Act

Mr. Bélanger

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

The Speaker

Citizenship Act

Mr. Bryden

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

1515

Youth Criminal Justice Act

Mr. Lunn

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

Statutory Instruments Act

Mr. Grewal

The Speaker

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

The Speaker

Petitions

Justice

Mrs. Chamberlain

1520

Stem Cell Research

Mr. Elley

National Defence

Mr. Robinson

Child Pornography

Mr. Robinson

Justice

Mr. MacKay

Stem Cell Research

Mr. Peterson

Child Pornography

Mr. Peterson

Bill C-15B

Mr. Peterson

Justice

Mr. Peterson

Mr. Telegdi

1525

The Speaker

Mr. Telegdi

Canada Post

Mr. Lunn

Child Pornography

Ms. Meredith

Mrs. Longfield

Stem Cell Research

Mrs. Longfield

Child Pornography

Mr. Jackson

Stem Cell Research

Mr. Grewal

Canada Post

Mr. Grewal

Justice

Mr. Doyle

Iraq

Mr. Adams

1530

Justice

Mrs. Ur

Child Pornography

Mrs. Ur

Mr. Efford (Bonavista—Trinity—Conception)

Canadian Coast Guard

Mr. Cummins

Justice

Mr. Hearn

Mr. Peric

Child Pornography

Mr. Pickard

1535

Stem Cell Research

Mr. Pickard

Aboriginal Affairs

Mr. Pickard

Child Pornography

Mr. Bryden

Stem Cell Research

Mr. Bryden

Questions on the Order Paper

Mr. Regan

The Speaker

Motions for Papers

Mr. Regan

Request for Emergency Debate

Search and Rescue

The Speaker

Mr. Cummins

1540

The Speaker

GOVERNMENT ORDERS

Speech from the Throne

Resumption of debate on Address in Reply

The Speaker

Mr. Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest)

1545

Mr. Doyle

Mr. Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest)

1550

Mr. Karygiannis

Mr. Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest)

Mr. Coderre

1555

1600

1605

1610

Mr. Forseth

Mr. Coderre

1615

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

Mr. Karygiannis

Mr. Reid

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

Mr. Karygiannis

1620

Mr. Coderre

Mr. Robinson

Mr. Coderre

Mr. Crête

Mr. Coderre

1625

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

Mr. Crête

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

Mr. Forseth

1630

1635

Mr. Merrifield

1640

1645

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

Business of the House

Mr. Boudria

1650

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

(Motion agreed to)

Speech from the Throne

Resumption of debate on Address in Reply

Mrs. Yelich

Mr. Merrifield

Mr. Pickard

1655

1700

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

1705

Mr. Chatters

Mr. Pickard

Mr. Hearn

Mr. Pickard

Mr. Schmidt

1710

Mr. Pickard

Mr. Karygiannis

1715

Mr. Chatters

1720

Mr. Karygiannis

Mr. Hearn

Mr. Karygiannis

Mr. Schmidt

1725

1730

Mr. Bagnell

1735

Mr. Schmidt

Mr. Chatters

Mr. Schmidt

Mrs. Ablonczy

1740

1745

Mr. Moore

Mrs. Ablonczy

1750

Mr. Hearn

Mrs. Ablonczy

Mr. Easter

1755

1800

Mr. Cummins

Mr. Easter

1805

Mr. Robinson

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Mr. Easter

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Mr. Mitchell

1810

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

1840

(Division 1)

The Speaker

Government Orders

Iraq

Mr. Knutson (Elgin—Middlesex—London)

1845

1850

Mr. Goldring

Mr. Knutson (Elgin—Middlesex—London)

Mr. Peric

1855

Mr. Knutson (Elgin—Middlesex—London)

Mr. Jaffer

Mr. Knutson (Elgin—Middlesex—London)

Mr. Dubé

1900

1905

Ms. Bulte

1910

1915

Mr. Kenney

Ms. Bulte

1920

Mr. MacKay

Ms. Bulte

Mr. Kenney

1925

1930

Ms. Carroll

Mr. Kenney

1935

Mr. Bagnell

Mr. Kenney

Mr. Moore

Mr. Kenney

Mr. Harvard

Mr. Kenney

1940

Mr. Lincoln

1945

1950

Mr. Jaffer

Mr. Lincoln

Mr. MacKay

1955

Mr. Lincoln

Mr. Bergeron

2000

2005

Mr. MacKay

Mr. Bergeron

2010

Mr. Rajotte

Mr. Bergeron

Ms. Catterall

2015

2020

Mr. Vellacott

2025

Ms. Catterall

Mr. Crête

Ms. Catterall

Mrs. Gallant

2030

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Ms. Catterall

Mr. Jaffer

2035

2040

Mr. Epp

Mr. Jaffer

Mr. Bagnell

2045

Mr. Jaffer

Mr. McKay

2050

2055

Mr. Benoit

Mr. McKay

2100

Mr. Vellacott

Mr. McKay

Mr. Crête

2105

2110

Mr. Goldring

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Mr. Crête

2115

Mr. Caccia

2120

2125

Mr. Benoit

Mr. Caccia

Mr. Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca)

2130

Mr. Caccia

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Mr. Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca)

2135

2140

Mr. Bagnell

Mr. Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca)

2145

Mr. Kenney

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Mr. Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca)

Mr. Paquette

2150

2155

Mr. Kenney

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Mr. Paquette

2200

Mrs. Redman

2205

Mr. Thompson (Wild Rose)

2210

Mrs. Redman

Ms. Carroll

Mrs. Redman

Mrs. Gallant

2215

2220

Mr. Bagnell

Mrs. Gallant

2225

Mr. Stinson

Mrs. Gallant

Mr. Thompson (Wild Rose)

Ms. Fry

2230

2235

Mr. Kenney

2240

Ms. Fry

Mr. Stinson

Ms. Fry

Mr. Comartin

2245

2250

Mr. Kenney

2255

Mr. Comartin

Ms. Fry

Mr. Comartin

Mr. Kilger

Mr. Blaikie

2300

Mr. Bagnell

2305

Mr. Blaikie

Mr. Kenney

Mr. Blaikie

2310

Mr. Mark

2315

2320

Mr. Bagnell

Mr. Mark

Mr. Wilfert

2325

Mr. Kenney

2330

Mr. Wilfert

The Deputy Speaker

Mr. Goldring

2335

2340

Mr. Cotler

2345

2350

2355

Mr. Kenney

Mr. Cotler

2400

The Deputy Speaker

CANADA

House of Commons Debates

VOLUME 138

•

NUMBER 003

•

2nd SESSION

•

37th PARLIAMENT

OFFICIAL REPORT (HANSARD)

Wednesday, October 2, 2002

Speaker: The Honourable Peter Milliken

The House met at 2 p.m.

Prayers

[S. O. 31]

* * *

(1400)

[English]

The Speaker: As is our practice on Wednesday we will now sing O Canada, and we will be led by the hon. member for Fraser Valley.

[Editors' Note: Members sang the national anthem]

STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS

[S. O. 31]

* * *

[English]

The Environment

Ms. Beth Phinney (Hamilton Mountain, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, yesterday in the House, the Prime Minister of Canada reiterated the government's intention to ratify the Kyoto protocol on climate change by the end of this year.

The agreement has strong support among Canadians. Last week the City of Hamilton joined municipalities across the country, from Kelowna and Canmore to Saint John and Pictou, in publicly declaring its support for ratification of the Kyoto accord.

Hamilton Mayor Bob Wade and the city council recognized that it is important to make a commitment to environmental sustainability, to ratify the Kyoto protocol now. The City of Hamilton is confident of the government's ability to develop a fair plan of action.

I congratulate the City of Hamilton on its commitment. The federal government looks forward to working with our partners on implementing the principles of the Kyoto accord.

* * *

Softwood Lumber

Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister's legacy is a legacy of pain for softwood lumber workers. Punitive duties remain in place and every day the forestry workers of B.C. face an uncertain future.

If the Prime Minister wants a legacy, he should defend the hard-working people of this country. We are tired of hearing about the progress, but no real results. The Liberals have sat on their hands while this file gathered dust.

The official opposition has lobbied the government for months to support our displaced workers. We are the only ones who have been forging alliances with consumer groups in the United States. We are the ones who have tried to repair the damage the Prime Minister has done with our relationship with the U.S. presidency. We are the ones standing strong in defence of our position at NAFTA and the WTO.

The Canadian Alliance would build a legacy with a strong economy, jobs for ordinary Canadians and fair, free trade with the United States over softwood lumber.

The only thing the government is building for forest workers is the unemployment line.

* * *

[Translation]

American Hellenic Educational Progressive Association

Ms. Raymonde Folco (Laval West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, over the years, postage stamps have played an important role in our lives. They make it possible for us to keep in touch with loved ones by correspondence, regardless of where they live.

Stamps mark our lives and our history. A few days ago, Canada Post announced the issue of new stamps in its commemorative series.

This program commemorates crowning achievements and significant anniversaries that have shaped Canada as we know it today. I am pleased to see that one of these stamps will be issued shortly to mark the 75th anniversary of the American Hellenic Educational Progressive Association in Canada. The AHEPA is a Greek-American organization which promotes a mutual understanding of Greek and Canadian cultures and encourages members to participate in the civic and commercial activities of Canadian society.

My congratulations to the American Hellenic Educational Progressive Association of Canada for all that it has accomplished for the past 75 years and more.

* * *

(1405)

Eaux Vives Harricana

Mr. Guy St-Julien (Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Eaux Vives Harricana is launching a high end spring water for export, the Esker brand.

Eaux Vives Harricana has begun shipping its Esker famous spring water, which is bottled at Saint-Matthieu d'Harricana, in Abitibi.

According to vice-president Ghislain Gauthier, the Esker brand is trademark protected in 85 countries.

The official opening of the Harricana plant took place on September 18, and the President of Parmalat of North America, Michael Rosiski, was among those in attendance.

The Government of Canada is proud to see that it is possible to carry out projects that contribute to the diversification of the economy of Abitibi-Témiscamingue. It also takes pride in the fact that companies like Parmalat share the confidence felt by local businessmen, particularly the investors of Amos who had faith in this project.

* * *

[English]

National Memorial Day

Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to pay tribute to all police and peace officers, especially the officers who have fallen in the line of duty. Our hearts go out to their families and friends, and we say in a voice united in remembrance that we will never forget the sacrifice that they have made.

This past Sunday thousands of Canadians gathered on Parliament Hill to honour and remember the officers. This important memorial service provides Canadians an opportunity to express their appreciation to police and peace officers, all of whom put their lives on the line on a daily basis to keep our communities safe.

To all police and peace officers, we thank them. We thank them for their dedication, their courage, their bravery and their sacrifice. We thank them for everything they do for Canada and all Canadians.

* * *

Hay West Campaign

Mrs. Carol Skelton (Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, for the second year in a row farm families on the Prairies have watched their crops and pastures wither and the dust fly as drought continues to grip most of Canada's grainbelt.

When a group of our farming neighbours in the eastern provinces heard about the drought conditions on the Prairies, they decided to do what they could to help and the Hay West campaign was born. There are many people who deserve thanks for their donations to this campaign, but the organizers of the Hay West initiative deserve special recognition.

I have had the pleasure of meeting two of the people behind the Hay West campaign, Willard McWilliams and Cumberland Councillor Phil McNeely, who have given hours of their own time and resources to coordinate the donations of thousands of tonnes of hay to western farmers. They have taken on a huge job out of their own goodwill and through the kindness of their hearts.

On behalf of the constituents of Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, and indeed all the recipients of the much needed hay, I want to congratulate the people who have led the Hay West campaign and extend a huge heartfelt thanks.

* * *

Member for Haldimand—Norfolk—Brant

Ms. Sarmite Bulte (Parkdale—High Park, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as chair of the federal branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, I rise today to congratulate the member for Haldimand—Norfolk—Brant on his election as chair of the executive committee of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association at its 48th conference held in Windhoek, Namibia, in September.

More than 225 members from approximately 135 Commonwealth parliaments and legislatures voted in the election which was contested by three other candidates.

The member for Haldimand—Norfolk—Brant is the first federal Canadian parliamentarian to hold this position. He also currently chairs the Prime Minister's caucus task force on future opportunities in farming.

The election is also a recognition of the important role that Canada plays in the Commonwealth and the international community. It is a recognition of our Canadian values.

I ask that the House join me in congratulating our colleague.

* * *

[Translation]

Caoutchouc Crosston

Ms. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, after having paid tribute to WorldBest's investment, I am happy to share with the House the news that a second Chinese company will be locating in Drummondville, its second plant in Canada.

The company is investing $2.5 million this year and another $2 million next year to create 35 jobs. Caoutchouc Crosston will be producing a unique product in Canada at its Drummondville plant.

This project came to fruition thanks to an economic mission to China, led by the Société de développement économique de Drummondville. Once again, the SDED's availability and the perseverance of the economic stakeholders in the Drummondville region have yielded positive results.

I would like to congratulate the executive director of the SDED, Martin Dupont, and welcome the Chinese visitors who will be living temporarily in Drummondville while the business gets started.

* * *

(1410)

[English]

Marine Conservation

Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, in September 2000, Canada's first marine protected area, Xwa Yen (Race Rocks), B.C., opened. In 2001 the House passed an act respecting marine conservation areas in Canada.

In 2002 the Speech from the Throne committed to new marine protected areas and new national parks.

Canada was late at moving to protect areas in our three oceans in comparison to the early protection of land areas through our magnificent national parks system.

We Canadians are responsible for areas in three oceans that are the equivalent of 50% of our land mass. This is a huge responsibility that we can take very seriously.

This month let us recognize the anniversary of our first marine protected area and celebrate the Speech from the Throne which extends protected areas offshore and on land.

* * *

Aboriginal Affairs

Mr. Brian Pallister (Portage—Lisgar, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, failing to learn from one's mistakes, as we all know, is a recipe for eternal frustration. The throne speech left many Canadians frustrated with the government.

Twenty-five years of throwing increasing amounts of money at aboriginal problems has raised the level of frustration to an incredibly high degree. On a per capita basis the federal government now dedicates more than eight times as much to aboriginal specific programs as was done in 1973, yet welfare dependency and the associated problems of poor health, low levels of education attainment, crimes and suicide show no signs of abating.

This week's throne speech promised more of the same. This is hardly a compassionate approach. Increasing spending on failed old band-aid approaches shows a miserable lack of genuine caring.

Long term solutions can only result if we pursue major reforms that empower aboriginal communities by empowering aboriginal people.

* * *

Sri Lanka

Mr. Irwin Cotler (Mount Royal, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, while we debate the Iraq situation an historic development has been taking place behind and beyond the headlines, and I am pleased to address it on M'hatmah Gandhi's birthdate. I am referring to the beginning of a peace process in Sri Lanka--after 19 years of a tragic conflict has left 65,000 dead, 1.5 million displaced 12,000 disappeared, and untold human catastrophe.

This historic démarche was commemorated last week by the Quebec Coalition for Peace in Sri Lanka, based in my riding, which held a moving ceremony involving the diverse expatriate Sri Lankan communities for the first time in 19 years.

Canada has an important role to play in this peace process by: sharing our experience as a bilingual and multicultural federal policy; developing a rights charter; helping in the de-mining process, saving life and limb; supporting confidence building measures underlying the peace process; and mobilizing economic donor support and investment.

* * *

Housing

Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): Mr. Speaker, what is a throne speech worth? Will the promises for housing actually translate into real and affordable housing units for the two million Canadians who need them?

Do the recycled promises to address deepening poverty actually put food on the tables for five million Canadians who have suffered under 10 years of Liberal commitment that was worthless?

I ask these questions because that is what the 200 people camped out in the tents around the empty Woodwards building in Vancouver are asking. That is what the 125 homeless people asked as they were evicted from a homeless depot in Toronto. It is cold comfort for them to hear another throne speech.

Political promises that purport to help the poor while the record shows the opposite is true is the worst form of political exploitation.

Today New Democrats call on the Prime Minister to honour his commitments. He should begin by acknowledging the damage that his government has done to the most vulnerable people in our society.

* * *

[Translation]

Speech from the Throne

Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in the Speech from the Throne, the Prime Minister missed a golden opportunity to leave a legacy and, more importantly, to make up for his devastating treatment of the sick and the unemployed.

Despite the fact that the health care system is crumbling, no real measures were announced for short term relief, and thousands of unemployed workers who do not qualify for EI will have to wait, as the speech contained nothing for them. For the Prime Minister, the fiscal imbalance is nothing more than a figment of the imagination, not the pernicious distortion of a system that contributes to impoverishing the population.

The Prime Minister is offering up more of what characterized his 40 years in politics: squabbles with Quebec. After interfering into education via the Millennium Scholarship Fund, he does one more by signing an announcement on a National Summit on Innovation and Learning, while at the same time announcing that it is taking over the securities sector.

The good intentions in this Speech from the Throne are spoiled by the actions of the past nine years and the Prime Minister's wish to go one last round with Quebec.

* * *

(1415)

[English]

Women's History Month

Mr. Gurbax Malhi (Bramalea—Gore—Malton—Springdale, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise today in honour of the important role women have played in our nation's history.

October is the month for Canadians to celebrate the contributions of women in Canada's history and to honour their achievements in our Canadian heritage.

This year we are celebrating the theme “Women and Sports-Champions Forever”.

I would like to recognize the outstanding achievement just this past year by our female athletes who brought home numerous medals from the Winter Olympic and Paralympic Games and the Commonwealth Games.

I am pleased to celebrate these and many other accomplishments by women athletes and encourage the rising stars to stay active and promote the benefits of participating in sports events.

* * *

Justice

Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC): Mr. Speaker, the decision by the Liberal government to rethink Canada's policy regarding deportation of war criminals is morally wrong.

Age is no reason to stop prosecution of individuals responsible for crimes against humanity. Justice must be served. We owe it to the memory to the victims and to survivors who endured unthinkable atrocities.

What kind of message are we sending to those hundreds of thousands of families affected by Nazi bloodshed if we say to war criminals “Welcome to Canada. Enjoy the comforts of our democracy?”

What kind of message are we sending if we say prosecution and justice are too expensive and time consuming? Justice is not always cheap or quick.

What kind of message are we passing on to future generations if we ignore barbaric acts? We have a responsibility to remember but, most important, to ensure that justice is done.

Out of respect for the victims, I ask the government to show the commitment and courage necessary to pursue, prosecute and punish war criminals.

* * *

Prime Minister

Ms. Carolyn Bennett (St. Paul's, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am very proud to stand today on behalf of all Canadians to congratulate the Prime Minister on being named World Statesman of the Year by the Appeal of Conscience Foundation.

[Translation]

The Prime Minister was in Manhattan last night to receive this prestigious award.

[English]

It was awarded to recognize the leading role the Prime Minister is taking on the new economic plan for Africa, particularly during last summer's G-8 summit in Kananaskis.

This foundation works on behalf of religious freedom and human rights around the world. The annual award is for furthering mutual understanding, peace and tolerance. This award is a testament to the Prime Minister's vision and ability to effect a consensus on this hugely important initiative.

[Translation]

Previous recipients of the award include Mikhaïl Gorbatchev and Vaclav Havel.

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

[Oral Questions]

* * *

[English]

Iraq

Mr. Stephen Harper (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, over the past few weeks the government's position on Iraq has been unclear and shifting. So to be clear now on the Iraqi threat, does the government now accept reports from security agencies in the United States, the United Kingdom and other countries, including CSIS, that Saddam Hussein represents a significant international security threat, that he has been developing weapons of mass destruction, chemical, biological and nuclear, and that he would be willing to use these against his neighbours?

Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we know that Saddam Hussein has been a terrible leader for his country. He has attacked Iran and Kuwait, and he has used instruments of mass destruction against his own people.

However, we have always held the position that in order to move there we need to have a new resolution at the United Nations that will be tighter than the previous one to make sure that the inspectors will be able to go in and do their jobs, and that if he has those types of mass destruction armaments then they should be destroyed, as was agreed to by him after the war in Kuwait.

Mr. Stephen Harper (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I think the Prime Minister has come a ways from saying that he needed proof.

There are also mixed signals from the government on its willingness to act on Iraq. So, to be clear, is the government now saying that it is standing with the allied coalition, the United States, the United Kingdom, Australia and others, demanding that there be clear consequences for Saddam Hussein for failure to comply with the United Nations resolutions?

(1420)

Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, that is exactly what we have said for many weeks. Our position has been very clear. We said that we have to operate with the United Nations and that it is very important to give international credibility to any intervention there. We do not believe in unilateralism. We believe in multilateralism. We need to have all the coalition working together to make sure that this type of armament will not be used either against his own people or neighbouring nations.

Mr. Stephen Harper (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, in all of that the Prime Minister failed to say whether he is working with our allies or not, so let me ask the question a different way.

Yesterday evening in the House the defence minister suggested that U.S. policy in Iraq has not been rules based or consistent with international law. Specifically he compared American policy to “the law of the jungle”. To be clear, is this the government's evaluation of the American approach to Iraq?

Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, in the many discussions I have had with President Bush I have always insisted that they should go through the United Nations with new resolutions, and that was the position taken by other leaders.

When I had discussions with the prime minister of Great Britain about this subject in South Africa we discussed the need to go to the United Nations. That was the message that was conveyed to the president by Mr. Blair. When I met the president on the Monday, it was evident that on the Thursday he would be asking the United Nations to adopt a strong, clear and effective resolution.

Mr. Stockwell Day (Okanagan—Coquihalla, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, freedom of speech is a wonderful thing, especially when practised by the Liberals.

For instance, last night, in the debate on Iraq, we heard that President Bush's aspirations for an alliance of nations to resist Saddam Hussein is like and compared to the Nazi approach to the second world war. I quote the member who said “...Bush is insulting the memory of World War II soldiers...”.

Is this the government's position?

Hon. Bill Graham (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I had the opportunity of participating all last night in an important debate in the House. It was clear that all members sought to try and wrestle with this extraordinarily important issue.

Analogies that were made on this side of the House were made to say that if we choose unilateralism and if we choose to attack in circumstances which could be perceived as aggression, we would defy the memory of those who resisted aggression in the past. That is a valid position. It is consistent with world international law. It is consistent--

The Speaker: The hon. member for Okanagan--Coquihalla.

Mr. Stockwell Day (Okanagan—Coquihalla, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, that is not what was said. It is disappointing that the minister did not distance himself from those Liberal remarks because it gets worse.

There was another comparison that any allied action that might be taken against Saddam Hussein would be comparable to the Japanese invasion and attack on Pearl Harbour. Is that the government's position?

The Speaker: The Hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh.

The Speaker: Order, please. We have questions and we have answers. We have to listen to both. The Hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs has the floor.

Hon. Bill Graham (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, that is no more the position of this party than it is an accurate description of what the member said in the House. The member said in the House that we may not associate ourselves with attacks that are perceived as aggressive attacks.

We have spent our time and the member and the Leader of the Opposition took this position as well. We have created a world order which resists aggression. This party and this country believe that we must work through the United Nations, as the Prime Minister has said, to have a world order which restricts aggression.

[Translation]

Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, today, President Bush reached a bipartisan agreement to table a resolution before the U.S. Congress allowing him to unilaterally take action in Iraq, outside the framework of the United Nations.

Given that he indicated yesterday his support for the American position, could the Prime Minister tell us today whether he will inform President Bush that Canada will never support unilateral action by the United States, whether the U.S. Congress authorizes it or not?

(1425)

Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, a debate is indeed taking place in the U.S. Congress, and a resolution to support or not to support the president will be passed. This is a U.S. domestic matter.

Canada's position remains unchanged. Any military action in Iraq will require a UN resolution. If there is a UN resolution which clearly indicates that all members that took part in previous coalitions want to participate, Canada will participate, but only with the support of the security council.

Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, does the Prime Minister realize that, by supporting the American position, under the UN resolutions, as he did yesterday, he is delaying the work of UN inspectors in Iraq and creating a split among security council members, when agreement and unanimity were not easy to obtain, and that he is condoning the unspeakable comments made yesterday by the White House spokesperson who alluded to the possibility of selective assassinations?

Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we hope that the inspectors will return to Iraq as soon as possible to do their job, but we also agree that a new resolution a required to clearly indicate what must be done and within what timeframes reports ought to be made to the United Nations.

There are already resolutions in effect. If they want to comply with the old resolutions, that is fine with me, but they will also have to comply with the one that will eventually and hopefully be adopted by the security council.

Ms. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister said that the implementation of the Kyoto protocol was so important that there would be a vote on it in the House. So what about war and deploying troops? These are also matters important enough that the government should obtain a prior go-ahead from the House before taking any sort of military action against Iraq.

Will the Prime Minister assure us that members of this House will be given an opportunity to vote before Canada takes any military action against Iraq?

Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, a debate is now taking place on this topic, right here in the House of Commons. It was held yesterday and will continue today.

Should new actions be necessary, we will come back to the House, as we did last night.

Ms. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, if declaring war and sending troops abroad comes under the exclusive jurisdiction of the government, the same logic also applies to Kyoto. And the Prime Minister thinks that Kyoto is so important that he is calling for a vote in the House.

So why are the people's representatives, members of this House, not being asked to vote on something like war and the deployment of troops?

Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we have followed the rules of procedure and, on several occasions since I became Prime Minister, have held debates here in the House of Commons. This was the case when we sent troops to Afghanistan, it was the case for Kosovo, and I believe that the procedure which was followed was satisfactory at the time, as it should normally be in the future.

[English]

Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

The U.S. has introduced a new resolution in the Security Council permitting an invasion of Iraq if U.S. demands are not met. Even though the resolution is not yet public, the Prime Minister says he supports it.

Would the Prime Minister tell us precisely what that resolution says? If not, why is he giving a blank cheque to the United States?

Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, there is no resolution. People are debating at this time what the next resolution should be. We say that we need a new resolution that has to be approved by the Security Council. Members of the Security Council are debating what the wording should be. We are not a member of that committee. The resolution does not yet exist.

The Security Council is trying to build one. We are in agreement with other governments that there is a need for a new resolution. The Americans are in agreement with that statement as well as the British and the French. The question now is what the words will be. When the words are known we will take action on the resolution. We need a new resolution and that is being worked on at this moment.

Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, in the 1993 red book the Liberals promised to carve out a more independent role for Canada and “to reject a camp follower approach to the U.S.”.

What do we have instead? We have the government giving comfort to assassination threats and silver bullet strategies. Is that really the legacy that the Prime Minister wants to leave behind?

(1430)

Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is always like that when people do not look at all the facts. I was attacked by the Leader of the Opposition for statements I made about the situation. It so happened that many of the words I used in my interview with the CBC were used last week by President Bush himself.

This is another loose interpretation by the leader of the NDP rather than looking at the facts. The Canadian position is an extremely strong position that has gained support from a lot of people who did not support that type of position before.

* * *

Kyoto Protocol

Right Hon. Joe Clark (Calgary Centre, PC): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

Former Premier Lougheed has noted that while the federal government has the power to ratify the Kyoto protocol it may not have the power to implement it.

Has the Government of Canada received a formal legal opinion that the federal government, acting alone, has the constitutional authority to implement Canada's Kyoto obligations? After he has answered that question, would the Prime Minister agree to table that legal opinion in Parliament today?

Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is an international obligation that can be taken by the national government. This has been the position that we have had over the years. The implementation is always done in Canada.

We have two levels of government, and we always manage to implement our international obligations in collaboration with the provinces and the private sector in Canada. It will be the same thing with Kyoto.

Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC): Mr. Speaker, yesterday the environment minister told the House that Canada would meet the targets set out by Kyoto. Yet in La Presse yesterday the minister said Canada will likely ratify yet at the end of the day not meet the target. Enron had Andersen Accounting and look where that got it.

Is the Prime Minister prepared to ask the House to vote on a target that his own minister admits the government does not intend to honour?

Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the targets are well known and we have 10 years to meet the targets. In the past we moved on things like acid rain. It was supposed to be an awful problem and we dealt with it at a lower cost than predicted, and everybody was happy.

It was the same thing some years ago concerning the lead in gasoline. Everybody said if we were to force the industry to take out the lead the industry would collapse. Now there is no more lead in gasoline and the oil companies are not on welfare yet.

* * *

Finance

Mr. Charlie Penson (Peace River, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister made a lot of spending promises in Monday's throne speech. However he made no similar promises about holding the line on taxes. Yesterday he even hinted he may raise taxes to pay for health care. Instead of considering increasing taxes like the GST or some other dedicated tax for health care, the government needs to get control of its spending addiction.

Will the Minister of Finance assure Canadians that he will not be raising taxes to pay for all these promises, and will he bring down a fall budget to lay out his plans?

Hon. John Manley (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it has been the record of the government to lower taxes.

In fact, the announcement we made in October 2000 on tax reduction was a $100 billion package over five years, the largest tax reduction package in this country's history; of that, $20 billion of tax reductions in this year alone. I do not know what the hon. member is worrying about.

Mr. Charlie Penson (Peace River, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, Canadian travellers and air traffic would certainly know what I am referring to. There is a tax that has been put on that.

Canadian taxpayers deserve to know how the government intends to carry out financing all these programs. The government does not have a revenue problem. It has not had a revenue problem for a long time, but it has a spending problem, a spending addiction. That is the Prime Minister's real legacy, a spending problem.

Why does the finance minister think it is appropriate to keep Canadians in the dark for four or five months before he brings down a budget to tell us how he will pay for these programs?

Hon. John Manley (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this spending problem is so grave that our spending as a percentage of GDP is at the level it was in the early 1950s. Our spending problem is so grave that we are the only G-7 country that is running a surplus this year and next year.

Our spending problem is such an addiction that we are the only G-7 country to be posting a 3.5% growth rate this year and probably next year. If the member is in the dark I do not know what I can do about it.

* * *

(1435)

[Translation]

Kyoto Protocol

Mr. Bernard Bigras (Rosemont—Petite-Patrie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, if there is to be fair and effective implementation of the Kyoto protocol, there must be unity of thought and of action. Yet the Minister of Health has come out against it and the Minister of Industry gives it only lip service support.

Does the Prime Minister feel that his cabinet is putting forth the unity that is necessary for ratification and implementation of the Kyoto protocol?

Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Yes, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Bernard Bigras (Rosemont—Petite-Patrie, BQ): Yet, Mr. Speaker, the ministers of health and natural resources oppose it, the industry minister is ambivalent, and the presumed successor to the Prime Minister is keeping mum.

Does the Prime Minister realize that his leadership problem is putting a damper on his intention to ratify Kyoto? In other words, does the Prime Minister agree that, in actual fact, it is the member for LaSalle—Émard who is pulling the strings, and his position on this is not known?

Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my party caucus is very much in favour of Kyoto. I have received petitions from MPs, and they have spoken to me about this for some years. I have listened to the caucus. They have been raising this for years, and we are now moving on it.

* * *

[English]

Government Expenditures

Mr. Gerry Ritz (Battlefords—Lloydminster, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Minister of Public Works said that the purchases of Challenger jets and maritime helicopters are “quite different transactions”. I guess they are, because one is done and the other one is not.

However today we have learned his officials briefed the minister weeks in advance of the Challengers being ordered, that in fact the two purchases were definitely linked; linked in such a way that could result in more legal action against the questionable purchasing methods of his government.

Will the minister now admit that he has no idea about proper procurement practices or was he simply misleading the House yesterday?

Hon. Ralph Goodale (Minister of Public Works and Government Services, Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board and Federal Interlocutor for Métis and Non-Status Indians, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the opposition has certainly tried to draw a linkage between the two transactions, but in fact they are quite different.

In one case it is a purchase of two aircraft; in the other case it is a purchase of 28 aircraft that would increase the fleet by a full two-thirds. In one case the contract value is $100 million or perhaps less; in the other case it is well over some billions of dollars.

In one case it is for a fairly simple task in terms of executive travel; in the other case it is a very complex task associated with the defence of the country. They are entirely different.

Mr. Gerry Ritz (Battlefords—Lloydminster, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, to the minister it is a numbers game but to taxpayers it is about priorities; which one do we actually need? Let me quote from Deputy Minister Cochrane's memo:

If the federal government cannot afford more for funding health care, how can it afford new planes while the old ones are still operational?

How could the minister possibly justify the extravagant purchase of new jets to the growing number of Canadians on waiting lists for health care?

In the case of health care, in the year 2000 the Prime Minister reached an historic accord with all of the premiers. The Government of Canada invested $23 billion in the short term. The Romanow commission was appointed to look at the long term. Romanow will report in November. The Prime Minister will hold a first ministers conference at the beginning of next year and the appropriate funding provisions will be provided in the next budget.

* * *

[Translation]

Supply Management

Mr. Louis Plamondon (Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, BQ): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister for International Trade. Yesterday, the minister said that he was firmly committed to supporting the supply management system.

However, a memo, which involves three departments and which was submitted to cabinet by very senior officials, proposed, as a strategy, that the supply management system be used as a bargaining chip in future WTO negotiations.

Can the Minister for International Trade assure us that this strategy has been totally ruled out and that making any kind of compromise in this area is out of the question?

(1440)

Hon. Pierre Pettigrew (Minister for International Trade, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we never considered making any kind of compromise regarding our supply management system. We did not develop a negotiating strategy that would jeopardize supply management in Canada, because we believe in this system.

We built it ourselves, and that includes this government and the previous governments. We have contributed to it more than some hon. members, who are trying to scare people who earn a good living on their farms, across the country. We will continue to promote the supply management system in Canada.

Mr. Louis Plamondon (Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, BQ): Mr. Speaker, if the minister's commitment is as firm and sincere as he claims, why does he not fully implement the measures provided under the existing agreement regarding border controls, by stopping imports that contain milk derivatives and by enforcing more strictly the 13% rule, for example in the case of chicken?

There is a great difference right now between what the minister says and does.

Hon. Pierre Pettigrew (Minister for International Trade, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, luckily, farmers have learned to work closely with us in recent years. These people were able to put their trust in us when it mattered.

When certain issues, such as cheese sticks imports, are brought to our attention, we settle the matter through discussions with the Americans. It is our government that solved issues which had not been settled in the years before it took office.

We will continue to work closely with farmers, even if this makes some people complain and even if it makes some waves in the regions.

* * *

[English]

Kyoto Protocol

Mr. Bob Mills (Red Deer, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister's cavalier approach to the ratification of Kyoto seems to totally ignore many Canadians, among them those on fixed incomes who will suffer under this plan. How will the Prime Minister answer to these people when they pay a lot more for power, heat and transportation?

Hon. David Anderson (Minister of the Environment, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as was said in the House--

The Speaker: Order. It is very difficult for the Chair to hear.

[Translation]

It is almost impossible for the Chair to hear the answer because of the noise at the other end of the House. I am urging hon. members to be a little more quiet, so that we can hear the questions and the answers. The hon. Minister of the Environment.

[English]

Hon. David Anderson: Mr. Speaker, as was said in the House yesterday on a number of occasions, we are attempting to work with the provinces and territories to put in place a plan whereby impact on Canadians, if any, is minimized.

In addition to the people the hon. member has mentioned, who of course are very important, he should also think of future generations and the impact of unfettered climate change on them and their future.

Mr. Bob Mills (Red Deer, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, we do care about future generations and the environment, but this Kyoto accord is just not going to do it and the minister knows that.

The Prime Minister talks about ratification. A number of companies have cut their future investments. They call this an investment chill and we are going to see a lot more of that. The minister knows that as well.

Why is the Prime Minister so intent on chasing his Kyoto legacy at the risk of an investment freeze?

Hon. David Anderson (Minister of the Environment, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, some 18 months ago the President of the United States said that the United States would not ratify Kyoto. Some 15 months ago the Prime Minister of Canada indicated that his intention was to ratify.

The figures that the hon. member should look at are the economic figures for the first eight months of this year, where American jobs have declined by 48,000. But in Canada these jobs are the direct result of investment and in Canada the increase has been 384,000 jobs, that many.

* * *

(1445)

Iraq

Mr. Larry Bagnell (Yukon, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as chair of the foreign affairs caucus I, with many of my colleagues, have a great interest in assuring that Canada does as much as possible through diplomatic channels to find a resolution to the situation in Iraq.

Could the Minister of Foreign Affairs please tell the House what methods he has taken to date to defuse the crisis?

Hon. Bill Graham (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for his question and the work that his committee does, in the tradition of Canadians, to work through diplomatic channels to try to find peaceful solutions to conflicts in the world.

What we have done is that I have worked closely with the Prime Minister, who has contacted world leaders to ensure that we continue to work through diplomatic channels to find a peaceful solution to this potential conflict.

When I was in New York I met with foreign ministers, I met with the Arab league and I met with the G-8. In all cases we stayed with and worked with our game plan, which is to keep this within the world community way of solving this problem, which is in the tradition of the Canadian way--

The Speaker: The hon. member for Windsor West.

* * *

Softwood Lumber

Mr. Brian Masse (Windsor West, NDP): Mr. Speaker, this government has had since 1996 to deal with the softwood lumber issue.

Yesterday in the House the Minister for International Trade said “everyone knows, good progress continues to be made”. This morning we learned that Tembec, Canada's second largest lumber producer, is laying workers off and curtailing operations as a result of U.S. trade actions.

It would appear that the government considers the destruction of the Canadian softwood lumber industry and the resulting job losses as “good progress”.

Will the Minister of Industry commit today to implementing a plan of action to protect this industry and the jobs it provides until the Minister for International Trade finally manages to get this trade dispute resolved?

Hon. Pierre Pettigrew (Minister for International Trade, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have been working very closely with my colleague, the Minister of Industry, who absolutely cares about and believes, like me, in the future of the softwood lumber industry. As well, we have been working with our colleagues, the ministers of natural resources and human resources.

We do understand that the going is getting rough on that territory, in the regions, in the communities. We find that extremely painful, but we do believe that it is important to clear the air in terms of our discussions with the United States. Yes, indeed, we will stand by our workers and our communities through the programs that we do have to help them cope with the present difficult times.

* * *

Foreign Affairs

Mr. Svend Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Last July, Omar Khadr, a 15-year-old Canadian citizen, was arrested by the U.S. army in Afghanistan. To date, the U.S. has allowed the Red Cross access but has refused all Canadian consular access, in blatant violation of international law.

I want to ask the minister this. What action is the government taking to ensure that this teenager will not be held at Guantanamo Bay indefinitely, tried before a secret military tribunal and possibly sentenced to death? What is Canada doing to defend the rights of this young Canadian citizen from this abuse of U.S. power?

Hon. Bill Graham (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my colleague opposite, who is very familiar with international law, will know that he is wrong in qualifying the right to consular access in these cases.

This young man in an unfortunate situation was arrested in the course of having been accused of killing an American serviceman in the course of a conflict. There is no consular access in the course of conflicts or we would have had consular access to all of our prisoners during the second world war.

We have access. We have requested to the United States to have access and it has assured us that we will have access. The Red Cross has assured us that the young man's health is in good condition. We continue to press the United States to ensure that his rights will be protected, but I want to assure the House--

The Speaker: The hon. member for Cumberland--Colchester.

* * *

National Revenue

Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC): Mr. Speaker, many Canadians are being denied the disability tax credit because the form is convoluted and complicated, but at least 20,000 disabled Canadians are being denied simply because the forms were not returned. Whether they are disabled or not, they are taken off the list, kind of like negative billing.

Has the minister made any effort to contact these people to find out why the forms were not returned?

Hon. Elinor Caplan (Minister of National Revenue, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we are determined to see that those people who are entitled to receive this tax credit do so.

We also are consulting at the present time to ensure that the form is clearly understood. What we are finding through our consultations is that in fact there has been some confusion in the past. We are working very hard to make sure that anyone who needs information about how to fill out this form is able to receive it quickly.

I appreciate the member's question. We are determined to make sure that when we do our audit we do it in a way that conforms with the law and helps people get the assistance they need.

(1450)

Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC): Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the question again. Will the minister contact the between 20,000 and 30,000 Canadians who are disabled and who did not return the form? Will the department contact those disabled people to make sure they are able to reapply for the tax credit?

Hon. Elinor Caplan (Minister of National Revenue, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we are aware that many people have not returned the form simply because they recognize that they no longer need the credit or do not in fact qualify.

However, wherever we have received a request for additional information or an explanation of the form we do that because we are determined to make sure that anyone who is entitled to receive this credit does receive it.

* * *

Coast Guard

Mr. John Cummins (Delta—South Richmond, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, on August 13 five lives were lost, including those of a mother and two small children, when the fishing vessel Cap Rouge II capsized. Coast Guard divers were directed not to attempt to rescue the persons trapped inside. Yesterday the Coast Guard commissioner stated that policy which would have permitted the divers to enter an overturned vessel had not been communicated to the divers.

What policy is he talking about?

The fleet safety manual prohibited divers from entering capsized vessels. Senior bureaucrats ordered them to stay out.

I ask the minister to table the policy which would have permitted a rescue attempt in this instance.

Hon. Robert Thibault (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the Canadian Coast Guard's diving policy is consistent with the Canada Labour Code. As such, divers do not enter restricted areas, but under the Canada Shipping Act there is a provision for joint coordinators of search and rescue to permit any actions necessary to save human life under reasonable circumstances.

Mr. John Cummins (Delta—South Richmond, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the Canadian labour code does not prohibit rescue dives. The fleet safety manual does. This minister's policy does.

The real issue here is that the minister and his senior bureaucrats have created a straw man. They would rather be held accountable for failing to communicate policy than putting in place a policy that may have cost five people their lives, including a mother and her two small children.

If that is not true, I challenge the minister to table the appropriate policy documents.

Hon. Robert Thibault (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the government offers its condolences to the families and friends of all the people whose lives were lost, but it regrets the actions by the members opposite and others who would have it seem to be the responsibility of the Coast Guard and due to actions of the Coast Guard. The Coast Guard, the divers, search and rescue, the fire departments and all responders did a beautiful job. They save 1,500 people annually in B.C. and will continue to do so. To indicate any less is irresponsible.

* * *

[Translation]

Government Contracts

Mr. Robert Lanctôt (Châteauguay, BQ): Mr. Speaker, with respect to the sponsorships scandal, the Minister of Public Works and Government Services yesterday denied that 80% of program spending was flawed.

However, the report produced by his department, which would give us a clearer picture, has yet to be made public, despite the minister's promise.

Why has the Minister of Public Works and Government Services not made this internal investigation report public, as he was supposed to do? Has he had a sudden change of heart?

[English]

Hon. Ralph Goodale (Minister of Public Works and Government Services, Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board and Federal Interlocutor for Métis and Non-Status Indians, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, first, let me congratulate the hon. member on his new assignment as critic for this portfolio. I should have offered my good wishes yesterday. I forgot to do so and I will do so at this time.

I am pleased to inform the House that the review of files in my department, which I announced in the spring, is nearing its completion. There are some 720 different files that had to be examined, about 125 or 130 of those in great detail. I am informed that the report is being finalized. I am looking forward to it, just as I am sure the hon. gentleman is.

[Translation]

Mr. Robert Lanctôt (Châteauguay, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the government has always refused to conduct an investigation pointing to the internal investigation and police investigation already underway.

Could the minister tell us how many police investigations are underway, how many contracts they involve and which companies are being targeted by these investigations?

(1455)

[English]

Hon. Ralph Goodale (Minister of Public Works and Government Services, Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board and Federal Interlocutor for Métis and Non-Status Indians, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it has already been noted in the public domain that there are some 13 matters that the police may have inquired into. I cannot confirm the number of investigations because, of course, it is up to the police themselves to determine that which they will investigate and that which they will not.

* * *

Airline Security

Mr. James Moore (Port Moody—Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, on May 22 this year on the issue of the $24 air tax, the Minister of Transport promised in the House that the government “will review the charge in September”. It is now October 2. I ask the transport minister, when will we see the report that he promised, or did he keep his word at all?

Hon. John Manley (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we will review the transport charge when we have adequate data in order to be able to review it properly. However, we do have a difference in principle with the opposition members. That is that we believe the users of the air transportation system should bear the costs of the additional security measures. They believe we should simply spend more and take it out of other revenues.

Mr. James Moore (Port Moody—Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, since the tax was introduced, Stephenville, Newfoundland; Yarmouth, Nova Scotia; and St. Leonard, New Brunswick have lost all Air Canada service. One airline in Saskatchewan has reported that boardings in Regina are down 52% and in Saskatoon they are down 42% from last year.

How many cities have to lose their air service before the government reacts by lowering or eliminating the air tax and getting more Canadians flying? When will the government listen?

Hon. John Manley (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, boardings are down all across North America in the wake of the events of September 11 last year. In attempting to determine the appropriate level for the security charge in the last budget, an attempt was made to estimate the level of boardings that would be experienced during this year in light of those events. In fact the estimate was fairly close, although perhaps boardings will prove to be slightly fewer than had been estimated in advance. These are variables we will take into account in the review of the charge.

* * *

Foreign Affairs

Mr. Walt Lastewka (St. Catharines, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Secretary of State for Central and Eastern Europe and the Middle East.

The secretary of state will be visiting the gulf region next week. In light of the increased tension in the area due to Iraq, would the secretary of state please tell us what he hopes to accomplish during this visit?

Hon. Gar Knutson (Secretary of State (Central and Eastern Europe and Middle East), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my trade mission to the gulf next week, accompanied by 30 Canadian companies, including SNC-Lavalin and EnCana, along with the member for St. Catharines, will stress that Canada's relationship with the Arab world is not simply one-dimensional. We can help achieve regional stabilities through strengthening our economic ties while at the same time conveying messages of Canadian values.

However, I will have the opportunity to sit down with leaders of these countries and convey Canada's desire to see a resolution of the current impasse regarding Iraq and the absolute necessity of getting the weapons inspectors back to work.

* * *

Canada-U.S. Border

Ms. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, another piece of hype in the government's throne speech is its claim to the free flow of people, goods and commerce at our borders. The reality at the border crossings in my riding is mile long backups and two to four hour delays. Is it the government's position that two to four hour delays constitute the free flow of goods?

Hon. Elinor Caplan (Minister of National Revenue, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we are monitoring the situation on an ongoing basis.

The safety and security of Canadians is paramount. We know that there is the occasional job action going on. There is a collective agreement and an ongoing grievance process. However, I can assure the member that safety and security is not being jeopardized and the flow of traffic is moving and is being monitored because we recognize its importance to all Canadians, as do the dedicated officers who are working at the borders.

Ms. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, this problem existed prior to the job delays. Despite a significant influx of U.S. customs personnel at the border, delays are caused by the American concern over the lack of Canada's commitment to continental security. Despite all the agreements, the Americans still do not trust the Liberal government to provide an appropriate level of security. What steps is the government taking to alleviate these concerns?

(1500)

Hon. John Manley (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have met about every four to six weeks with the director of homeland security, Governor Tom Ridge. We were able to conclude a historic agreement which was acknowledged on September 9 at an important meeting in Detroit between the President of the United States and the Prime Minister of Canada.

I can honestly tell the member I do not know her source of information, but in all those months of meetings dealing with issues that have bedevilled both governments for years, I have never heard any of the U.S. officials, political representatives, or secretaries of the cabinet suggest that they had any doubts about Canada's security.

* * *

[Translation]

Highway Infrastructure

Mr. Mario Laframboise (Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, BQ): Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the Minister of Transport said that he had no doubt that highway 30 would be extended shortly. On January 29, 2001, he considered this same highway a priority. In the spring of 2001, work would be starting as soon as possible. In a letter dated August 20, 2001, it was again a priority, and on August 6, 2002, it was a question of weeks, if not days.

Rather than spouting one empty statement after another, will the Minister of Transport give a formal commitment today that he will sign the memorandum of understanding the Government of Quebec sent him almost ten months ago, in order to extend highway 30 between Candiac and Vaudreuil?

Hon. David Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, before signing the agreement with the Government of Quebec, it is necessary to put in place all the measures for studying the situation. We have begun with the environmental and traffic studies. That is what I said yesterday.

* * *

[English]

Aboriginal Affairs

Mr. Brian Pallister (Portage—Lisgar, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, over the last 30 years in Canada we have seen an eightfold increase in per capita spending on aboriginal problems, yet the societal problems continue and worsen. This billion dollar Band-Aid approach of dealing with symptoms and ignoring the causes just throws good money after bad.

My question for the finance minister is, what analysis has he done that would let the government believe that its failed approach will work in the future any better than it has in the past?

Hon. Robert Nault (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thought the opposition would be standing up to applaud the government for a Speech from the Throne that recognized the important work that needs to be done with aboriginal people.

In the last number of months we have been talking with aboriginal people right across the country. We are consulting with them. This fall we will be bringing forward four pieces of legislation, which we hope the opposition will agree with. They will move us toward a government to government relationship, and the kind of modern tools of governance that will help first nations build an economy to move them from the welfare situation they are in to an economy that we all want.

* * *

[Translation]

Softwood Lumber

Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères—Les-Patriotes, BQ): Mr. Speaker, after months of hemming and hawing, the government at least seems to have figured it out and is sending the message that it will shortly be announcing an assistance plan for the softwood lumber industry. As for the Bloc Quebecois, we grasped the situation long ago and, back in March, presented a plan upon which the government ought surely to draw in order to help businesses and workers through the crisis, pending the NAFTA and WTO decisions.

Can the Minister for International Trade assure us that the plan he intends to announce will, like that of the Bloc Quebecois, include measures to assist the workers and measures to assist the companies, for instance loan guarantees?

Hon. John Manley (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Minister for International Trade, I will start by saying that we have already announced financial assistance. Second, we have already been successful at the WTO. Our government is committed to working hard with the industry to find solutions promptly for the softwood lumber industry.

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

[Routine Proceedings]

* * *

(1505)

[English]

Order in Council Appointments

Mr. Geoff Regan (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table, in both official languages, a number of order in council appointments made recently by the government.

* * *

Government Response to Petitions

Mr. Geoff Regan (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36(8), I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the government's response to 10 petitions.

* * *

[Translation]

Interparliamentary Delegations

Mr. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 34(1), I have the honour to present to the House, in both official languages, the 15th report of the Canadian NATO Parliamentary Association, which represented Canada at the spring 2002 session of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly held in Sofia, Bulgaria from May 24 to May 28, 2002.

Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 34(1), I have the honour to table in the House, in both official languages, the report of the Canadian section of the Assemblée parlementaire de la Francophonie, and the financial report relating to it.

The report refers to the 28th annual meeting of the APF, which took place in Berne, Switzerland, from July 4 to 10, 2002.

[English]

Mr. Joe Comuzzi (Thunder Bay—Superior North, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 34(1), I have the honour to report on the Canadian delegation to the 43rd annual meeting of the Canada-United States interparliamentary group, held in Rhode Island in May 2002.

This is the first time that we have had the opportunity to meet with our American parliamentary colleagues since 9/11/01. Needless to say, terrorism and the security of our citizens was front and centre in our debate.

This year we introduced a new format. This report, which we consider to be so important with Canada-U.S. relations, will be circulated to every member of the House and every member of the Senate. I hope they take the time to go through it. It will also be circulated to members of the United States Senate and the United States House of Representatives.

* * *

Whistle Blower Human Rights Act

Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Canadian Alliance) moved for leave to introduce Bill C-201, entitled Whistle Blower Human Rights Act.

He said: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the people of Surrey Central, and indeed all Canadians, I am reintroducing my private member's bill respecting the protection of employees in the public service who make allegations in good faith respecting wrongdoing in the public service. It is also known as the whistle blower human rights act.

The purpose of the bill is to protect the members of the Public Service of Canada who disclose, or blow the whistle in good faith, well-founded allegations of wrongdoing in the public service which would cover such situations as waste, fraud, corruption, abuse of power, violation of law, threats to public health and safety, et cetera. The public interest is served when employees are free to make such reports without fear of retaliation or discrimination.

The bill is in the same form as Bill C-201 which I introduced in the previous session. I also take the opportunity to thank the hon. member for Calgary--Nose Hill for seconding this important bill.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

(1510)

The Speaker: The Chair is satisfied that this bill is in the same form as Bill C-201 was at the time of prorogation of the first session of the 37th Parliament. Accordingly, pursuant to Standing Order 86.1, the bill should be added to the bottom of the list of items in the order of precedence on the Order Paper following the first draw of the session, and be designated a votable item.

* * *

[Translation]

Canada Health Act

Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.) moved for leave to introduce Bill C-202, An Act to amend the Canada Health Act (linguistic duality).

He said: Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 86.1, I wish to return to the Order Paper my bill entitled an act to amend the Canada Health Act for first reading today.

This bill is identical to the one I introduced during the last session, at which time it was known as Bill C-407. I would like to see the bill revived during this session and placed at the same point in the order of precedence where it was when Parliament was prorogued.

I thank the hon. member for Beauséjour—Petitcodiac for seconding it. This bill would add a sixth principle to the Canada Health Act, that of respecting Canada's linguistic duality.

[English]

This is an important bill for all linguistic minorities across the country. I look forward to the three hours of debate and the vote further on in this session.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

[Translation]

The Speaker: The Chair is satisfied that this bill is at the same stage as Bill C-407 was prior to the prorogation of the first session of the 37th Parliament.

Therefore, pursuant to Standing Order 86(1), this bill will be placed at the bottom of the order of precedence in the Order Paper, following the first draw of the session, and will be deemed a votable item.

* * *

[English]

Citizenship Act

Mr. John Bryden (Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, Lib.) moved for leave to introduce Bill C-203, an act to amend the Citizenship Act (Oath or Affirmation of Citizenship).

He said: Mr. Speaker, this bill, a new bill, would amend the act of citizenship to better define the responsibilities of Canadian citizenship. It would do that by changing the current text of the oath of citizenship to better reflect the principles that are laid out in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

I cannot think of another time in Canadian history when it is so important, given what is happening elsewhere in the world, for Canadians to be reminded of what we stand for as Canadians and to tell the world thusly what we stand for as Canadians, and that we uphold the basic rights of people around the world.

Therefore the basic text of the oath that I am proposing would be: “In pledging allegiance to Canada, I take my place among Canadians, a people united by God, whose sacred trust is to uphold these five principles: the equality of opportunity, freedom of speech, democracy, basic human rights and the rule of law”.

I thank the member for Saint-Lambert for seconding me on this bill.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

* * *

(1515)

Youth Criminal Justice Act

Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Canadian Alliance) moved for leave to introduce Bill C-204, an act to amend the Youth Criminal Justice Act.

He said: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to rise on behalf of all the residents of Saanich--Gulf Islands. I rise to reintroduce my private member's bill to amend the Youth Criminal Justice Act. This is the second time in six months the bill has had to be reintroduced, largely because of the Prime Minister's unnecessary prorogation of Parliament.

My bill seeks to balance the need to punish youth who commit property crimes with the understanding that many young offenders never reoffend if they get the help they need.

If passed, the bill will do three things. First, it will impose mandatory curfews for all young offenders convicted of a B and E or a home invasion until the age of 18, or one year to a maximum of three years.

Second, it will impose mandatory jail terms for repeat offenders of these crimes, with a minimum sentence of 30 days.

Third, it will lay charges against the guardians who fail to report breaches of a probation upon discovering them. Penalties could both be up to $2,000 or six months.

I conclude by saying that without enforcement mechanisms, many probation breaches go unreported. Without reporting, youth do not get the guidance they need. The bill seeks a fair balance between punishment and rehabilitation. I encourage all members to support it.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

* * *

Statutory Instruments Act

Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Canadian Alliance) moved for leave to introduce Bill C-205, an act to amend the Statutory Instruments Act (disallowance procedure for statutory instruments).

He said: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the constituents of Surrey Central, and indeed all Canadians, in the spirit of democratic reform, I am reintroducing my private member's bill entitled an act to amend the Statutory Instruments Act (disallowance procedure for statutory instruments).

The bill seeks to establish a statutory disallowance procedure for all statutory instruments that are subject to review and scrutiny by the Standing Joint Committee on Scrutiny of Regulations, of which I was co-chair in the last parliament. The bill will give teeth to the joint committee and will empower members of the House and the Senate to democratize our rights in Parliament.

This bill is in the same form as Bill C-202 which I introduced in the previous session. Therefore, pursuant to Standing Order 86.1, I wish to have this bill returned to its previous status before prorogation.

May I have unanimous consent to have this bill called Bill C-202 rather than any other number?

The Speaker: That will be difficult because we already have a Bill C-202. These numbers get put on and those are the breaks. Therefore it will be difficult to do that, but we will deal with that issue in a minute. We will get the bill read a first time before the House.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

The Speaker: The Chair is satisfied that this bill is in the same form as Bill C-202 was at the time of prorogation of the first session of the 37th Parliament. Accordingly, pursuant to Standing Order 86.1, the bill shall be added to the bottom of the list of items in the order of precedence on the Order Paper following the first draw of the session, and designated a votable item.

Perhaps the hon. member could confer with the hon. member for Ottawa--Vanier who got his bill in as Bill C-202 and see if they can arrange something and come back to the House shortly. If there is consent we will make the appropriate adjustment.

* * *

Petitions

Justice

Mrs. Brenda Chamberlain (Guelph—Wellington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, today we have 1,500 signatures with the coalition formed within the House by 26 members of Parliament now and 32 senators.

This past June we also tabled 2,300 signatures calling on the Minister of Justice to keep the process moving in a timely fashion for the re-examination by the Hon. Fred Kaufman and that justice be restored to Mr. Steven Truscott.

* * *

(1520)

Stem Cell Research

Mr. Reed Elley (Nanaimo—Cowichan, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure, on behalf of my constituents in Nanaimo--Cowichan, pursuant to Standing Order 36 to present to the House two petitions with 125 signatures. The petitioners have asked that in the present look at stem cell research the Parliament of Canada give a good deal of support to looking at adult stem cell research as the best alternative and, in taking a look at this serious problem, to focus its legislative support on adult stem cell research rather than on embryonic stem cell research which poses a great many moral problems.

* * *

National Defence

Mr. Svend Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present two petitions today.

The first petition is one which is signed by a large number of residents of my constituency of Burnaby--Douglas on the subject of a space preservation treaty. The petitioners refer to concerns about the termination of the ABM treaty on June 13 this year.

They call upon Parliament to ensure that there is an immediate approval, signature and ratification of a space preservation treaty by Canada and that the treaty be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations as a treaty depository.

They ask as well that the Government of Canada convene a treaty signing conference for the space preservation treaty.

* * *

Child Pornography

Mr. Svend Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I have a second petition which was also signed by residents of my constituency of Burnaby--Douglas, and in particular by Ms. Tania Jackson of Garden Grove Drive in Burnaby.

The petitioners draw to the attention of the House their concern that the creation and use of child pornography is condemned by the clear majority of Canadians. They note that the courts have not applied the current child pornography law in a way which makes it clear that such exploitation of children will always be met with swift punishment.

They call upon Parliament to protect our children by taking all necessary steps to ensure that all materials that promote or glorify pedophilia or sado-masochistic activities involving children are outlawed.

* * *

Justice

Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36 I have the honour to table a petition on behalf of hundreds of Canadians adding their names to thousands more in support of Steven Truscott. They call upon the government and the Minister of Justice to review the case which resulted in the 1959 conviction of 14 year old Steven Truscott for a murder I believe he did not commit.

This case received great attention and notoriety in the country. It is one with which the previous Minister of Justice took action. This petition is calling upon the current Minister of Justice to pursue this issue with a section 690 application under the Criminal Code to look at the case, to examine the evidence once again, including new evidence that has been brought forward, and to see that justice is finally done in this prolific case and journey that Mr. Truscott and his family have been on since 1959.

* * *

Stem Cell Research

Hon. Jim Peterson (Willowdale, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have six petitions. The first concerns focusing government support on adult stem cell research.

* * *

Child Pornography

Hon. Jim Peterson (Willowdale, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have two petitions concerning child pornography which urge tougher laws against matters that glorify pedophilia or sado-masochistic activities involving children.

* * *

Bill C-15B

Hon. Jim Peterson (Willowdale, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have two petitions with thousands of names urging that Parliament complete its work in passing Bill C-15B, crimes against animals involving sections of the Criminal Code.

* * *

Justice

Hon. Jim Peterson (Willowdale, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the last petition I present involves Steven Truscott. The petitioners urge the government to ensure that the investigation and re-examination of this case take place as quickly as possible.

Mr. Andrew Telegdi (Kitchener—Waterloo, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to present a petition signed by 97 people related to the Steven Truscott case. Steven Truscott, as a 14 year old boy, was sentenced to hang in 1959. The case had unusual circumstances surrounding the police investigation and questions surrounding the consequent conviction of Mr. Truscott remain unanswered.

The petitioners call upon Parliament and ask the Minister of Justice, the Hon. Martin Cauchon to undertake--

(1525)

The Speaker: Order, please. The hon. member knows he cannot refer to members by name and I know he would want to comply with the rules in every respect.

Mr. Andrew Telegdi: I forgot, Mr. Speaker. It is important that the case be re-examined within a reasonable timeframe. I believe most Canadians would agree with me that justice should be restored to Mr. Truscott.

* * *

Canada Post

Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I would like to present a petition on behalf of the constituents of Saanich--Gulf Islands and throughout British Columbia.

The petitioners call upon Parliament to appeal subsection 13(5) of the Canada Post Corporation Act as rural route mail carriers have not been allowed to bargain collectively to improve their wages and working conditions, and often earn less than minimum wage.

* * *

Child Pornography

Ms. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to present two petitions on behalf of residents from the Lower Mainland. The first petition contains 249 signatures, the second petition contains 422 signatures.

Both petitions call upon Parliament to protect our children by taking all necessary steps to ensure that all materials that promote or glorify pedophilia or sado-masochistic activities involving children are outlawed.

Mrs. Judi Longfield (Whitby—Ajax, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present two petitions which call upon the House to protect our children by taking all necessary steps to ensure that all materials which promote or glorify pedophilia or sado-masochistic activities involving children are outlawed. Pursuant to the Standing Orders I have affixed my signature.

* * *

Stem Cell Research

Mrs. Judi Longfield (Whitby—Ajax, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have two additional petitions that call upon the government to focus its legislation on non-embryonic stem cells, or adult stem cells, for research which finds cures and therapies necessary to treat the illnesses and diseases of suffering Canadians, and I affix my signature to these petitions as well.

* * *

Child Pornography

Mr. Ovid Jackson (Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today on behalf of my constituents of Bruce--Grey--Owen Sound to table four petitions. There are some 200 names on the petitions.

The petitioners call upon Parliament to take all necessary measures to ensure that children are protected by ensuring that materials promoting pornography and sado-masochistic activities against children be outlawed.

* * *

Stem Cell Research

Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the constituents of Surrey Central and many other Canadians I am pleased to table two petitions.

My first petition calls upon Parliament to support ethical stem cell research which has already shown an encouraging potential to provide cures and therapies for illnesses and diseases such as Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, diabetes, cancer, MS, spinal cord injuries and so on.

* * *

Canada Post

Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, my second petition is calls upon Parliament to repeal subsection 13(5) of the Canada Post Corporation Act.

Rural route mail carriers, who often earn less than the minimum wage and have working conditions reminiscent of another era, have not been allowed to bargain collectively to improve their wages and working conditions. The said section prohibits them from having collective bargaining rights. I am pleased to table these two petitions.

* * *

Justice

Mr. Norman Doyle (St. John's East, PC): Mr. Speaker, I have a petition signed by approximately 100 people asking the Minister of Justice to undertake a thorough re-examination of the Steven Truscott case. They believe that an injustice was done to Steven Truscott. The petitioners urge Hon. Justice Kaufman to re-examine the facts of the case in a timely fashion and that justice be restored.

* * *

Iraq

Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition from hundreds of citizens of Peterborough who do not want Canada to support another U.S. attack on Iraq. It is appropriate that I present this petition during the debate on Iraq.

The petitioners point out that by rejecting violence and lifting the sanctions against the Iraqi people we would win the goodwill of Iraqi citizens and open the door for them to make political changes leading to peace.

They call upon Parliament to refuse to cooperate in any way in a war against Iraq and to use Canada's diplomatic efforts to convince the United States, Britain and the United Nations to choose the tools of diplomacy, not the weapons of war, for establishing peace in the Middle East. They call for the lifting of all but military sanctions against Iraq.

* * *

(1530)

Justice

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur (Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36 I wish to present a petition on behalf of the citizens living in London and surrounding area. There are approximately 325 signatories who call upon Parliament to ask the Minister of Justice to undertake a thorough examination of the Steven Truscott case within a reasonable time period and to ensure that justice is restored to Mr. Truscott.

* * *

Child Pornography

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur (Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my second petition is on behalf of citizens living in my riding of Lambton--Kent--Middlesex. The petitioners call upon Parliament to protect children by taking all necessary steps to ensure that all materials which promote or glorify pedophilia involving children are outlawed.

Mr. R. John Efford (Bonavista—Trinity—Conception, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present a petition on behalf of Wanda Goodyear of Lumsden, Newfoundland, signed by 480 constituents of mine in the riding of Bonavista--Trinity--Conception.

The petitioners call upon Parliament to ensure all necessary steps are taken to protect our children from any material promoting child pornography and to make it clear that any such exploitation of children will be met with swift punishment.

* * *

Canadian Coast Guard

Mr. John Cummins (Delta—South Richmond, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure today to present a petition from the residents of Galiano Island, home port of the Cap Rouge, which sank tragically last August.

The citizens of Galiano Island are noting that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans no longer provides sufficient funding for the coast guard. Their wish is that the coast guard be separated from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, that it become an independent body and that it be provided with sufficient funds to allow it to act and perform its functions.

* * *

Justice

Mr. Loyola Hearn (St. John's West, PC): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table a petition calling upon Parliament to review the Steven Truscott case. A thorough examination of this case should take place within a reasonable time. I fully concur with the remarks made earlier by my colleague, the member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough. His remarks were extremely relevant to the petition being presented.

Mr. Janko Peric (Cambridge, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have the privilege to present to the House a petition from citizens who are deeply concerned that Mr. Steven Truscott suffered a grave injustice when he was wrongly convicted.

The petitioners wish to draw to the attention of the House that in 1959 a 14-year old Steven Truscott was charged, convicted and sentenced to death, yet questions about the investigation and the conviction have been raised time and time again. The petitioners pray and request that the Minister of Justice act now to restore Mr. Steven Truscott's name.

* * *

Child Pornography

Mr. Jerry Pickard (Chatham—Kent Essex, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is my privilege to present a petition signed by my constituents that calls upon Parliament to take all necessary steps to ensure that any and all material dealing with child pornography or sado-masochistic activities involving children be outlawed. I believe that several other petitions have been presented, and the majority of Canadians agree with this petition.

* * *

(1535)

Stem Cell Research

Mr. Jerry Pickard (Chatham—Kent Essex, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have a second petition calling upon Parliament to focus its legislation on adult stem cell research to find cures and therapies to treat illnesses, and focusing on adult stem cell research, not embryonic research.

* * *

Aboriginal Affairs

Mr. Jerry Pickard (Chatham—Kent Essex, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my third petition calls upon Parliament to act immediately to resolve the issue of residential school litigation outside the courts and specifically, to assume full responsibility for the Mohawk Institute lawsuit thereby recognizing that the Anglican Diocese of Huron was never a party to the operation of that residential school.

Parliament is called upon to act before further ruin occurs in the Diocese of Huron and other dioceses of the Anglican Church.

* * *

Child Pornography

Mr. John Bryden (Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have three petitions on two themes that the House has heard repeatedly. My first petition deals with the issue of better control of material pertaining to child pornography.

* * *

Stem Cell Research

Mr. John Bryden (Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the other two petitions I have the pleasure to present to the House today urge that adult stem cell research be emphasized over embryonic stem cell research.

The House has heard these themes repeated time and again. This Parliament should take these applications very seriously because they obviously reflect the concern of Canadians all across the country.

* * *

Questions on the Order Paper

Mr. Geoff Regan (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, in the event there are any and just to be safe, I ask that all questions be allowed to stand.

The Speaker: Is that agreed?

Some hon. members: Agreed.

The Speaker: I want to clarify something to the House. The Chair made a mistake, but I will correct it right now. The mistake is with respect to Bill C-201, the whistle blower human rights act, standing in the name of the hon. member for Surrey Central. It had not been on the order of precedence in the previous session and accordingly will not be on the order of precedence today as I stated it would be. It will in fact be considered as part of the private members' business draw in the usual fashion with the other bills. I apologize to the House for that error.

* * *

Motions for Papers

Mr. Geoff Regan (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, along the same lines as my comments regarding questions on the order paper, I would ask that all Notices of Motions for the Production of Papers be allowed to stand.

The Speaker: Is that agreed?

Some hon. members: Agreed.

* * *

Request for Emergency Debate

Search and Rescue

[S. O. 52]

The Speaker: The Chair has notice of a request for an emergency debate by the hon. member for Delta--South Richmond.

Mr. John Cummins (Delta—South Richmond, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I thank you for your indulgence in allowing me to address this important issue.

The safety of passengers on flights in and out of Vancouver International Airport is in jeopardy. The airport depends on the Coast Guard to provide round-the-clock hovercraft search and rescue services on the tidal flats adjacent to the airport. Such service can no longer be provided as one of the two hovercraft is permanently going out of service at midnight, October 4, 2002 when its safety and seaworthiness certification expires.

Internal Coast Guard documents advise the Regional Director for the Coast Guard that, “In October 2002 the situation will reach a point where the federal search and rescue program will not be able to meet its mandated responsibilities in the shallow waters surrounding metropolitan Vancouver. The department will be blamed for the loss of lives resulting from a failure to meet our legal duty of care”.

The hovercraft are staffed with rescue divers capable of rescuing those trapped in an aircraft that has been forced to ditch in the tidal waters near the airport. The airport's emergency plan is predicated on the availability of a minimum of two hovercraft on a round-the-clock basis to pick up passengers, ferry out members of the Richmond fire department and, in the words of the emergency plan, “to continue to provide transportation for casualties, rescue personnel and equipment until the need no longer exists”.

The Superintendent of Marine Search and Rescue has already advised local fire departments that hovercraft search and rescue will be unavailable for certain periods, such that they will be unable to provide a rapid response. The superintendent further advised that until the situation is rectified it is suggested that any contingency plans that include the use of hovercraft be modified in the interim.

Without hovercraft search and rescue services, the airport's emergency plan is compromised, as is the safety of passengers at the Vancouver airport. On August 13, the day of the Cap Rouge tragedy, only the retiring hovercraft was in service and it suffered severe mechanical problems while attempting the rescue.

The search and rescue operations report on the tragic loss of a mother, her two children and two crew aboard the Cap Rouge recommends a replacement craft capable of operating on the large Fraser River mud flats should be acquired as soon as possible.

We cannot afford another Cap Rouge tragedy, where the Coast Guard lacks the authority and resources to effect a rescue, leaving body recovery as the only option.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for your consideration on this important matter.

(1540)

The Speaker: The Chair of course has carefully considered the letter that the hon. member sent in compliance with the standing order and his submissions today in the House. However in the circumstances I cannot find that the request falls within the ambit of the standing order and does not meet its exigencies, as we say, and I must therefore deny the request at this time.

GOVERNMENT ORDERS

[The Address]

* * *

[English]

Speech from the Throne

Resumption of debate on Address in Reply

The House resumed from October 1 consideration of the motion for an address to Her Excellency the Governor General in reply to her speech at the opening of the session, of the amendment, and of the amendment to the amendment.

The Speaker: When the House last considered the matter, the hon. member for New Brunswick Southwest had the floor and there remained to him six minutes in the time allotted for his remarks. Accordingly the member for New Brunswick Southwest has the floor.

Mr. Greg Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest, PC): Mr. Speaker, last evening I was making the case for why the throne speech was not necessary and why it was basically a waste of Parliament's time to prorogue and then have us come back to hear a Speech from the Throne. Why is it unnecessary? Because in the throne speech following the election in 2000 there were 39 promises. In fact there have been two throne speeches and only one budget. Out of the 39 promises only nine of them have been completed.

It shows us how seriously the government takes its own throne speeches. The Liberals do not take them seriously and they routinely break promises. This is just another litany of promises of things the government wants to do, yet it does not bring down a budget. There is no fiscal framework in which to carry out the numerous promises.

I did not count them in Monday's throne speech, but I think something in the order of 50-some promises were made. How many of those will be kept? Why would we believe the government? There would be no reason to believe it because there is a very poor percentage of completed commitments on the part of the government.

This is the price the country is paying for the Prime Minister's determination to leave some sort of legacy, and I say a positive legacy because obviously if the Prime Minister left today, there certainly would not be a very positive legacy. He has had nine years to fulfill some of the broken promises and virtually none of them have been fulfilled. I want to go through the list of what some of those promises were.

The Prime Minister made a commitment many years ago to aboriginal issues and a commitment to children in poverty. As we speak, there are more children in poverty today than when the government took office. It has had nine years to do something and it has done nothing.

On military issues, we well know that our forces are poorly equipped, undermanned, totally demoralized and underfunded. The government has followed through on virtually none of the promises made to the military over the years.

The reduction of greenhouse gas emissions is another example of no action on the part of the government. Health care is the biggest pressing issue in this country.

There is a litany of broken, bogus promises. It reminds me of a famous character, now deceased, from the area in which I live, St. Stephen, New Brunswick, by the name of Bad Cheque Charlie. He was in the habit of writing bogus cheques. One afternoon he was in my father's business, our family business, and he wanted to cash a $100 cheque. My father said to Bad Cheque Charlie, “Charlie, given your reputation, what am I to do? This cheque is obviously going to bounce”. Charlie's response was, “Don't worry, Ralph. I'll come in next week and write another one”. Is that not exactly what the government is doing? Do not worry about broken promises because the government will just make more promises next week or in the next throne speech with no intention of following through on any of those promises.

More important, the government does not have the fiscal framework in which to do it until the budget comes down. That will be the next shoe to drop because services of government have to be paid for or planned for. That is what we would expect in the real world, but not from the government.

In the one minute remaining I want to quote a headline story from the National Post:

Jean Chrétien hinted yesterday that Canadians might have to shoulder a tax increase to pay for costly reforms to health care, even as he vowed not to turn into a big spender to create a legacy agenda for his last 16 months as Prime Minister. While he pledged to continue balancing the country's books and reducing the national debt, Mr. Chrétien offered no similar commitment to further reduce or even hold the line on taxes. He promised only that taxes will be “fair and competitive”.

(1545)

The Deputy Prime Minister may indeed have to jump off the Peace Tower. There will be no question about it, that to implement the throne speech the government will have to raise taxes. Let us wait for the next budget to find out how the government is going to pay for this litany of promises to leave a “positive legacy” for a Prime Minister that does not have a legacy to leave at this point in time.

Mr. Norman Doyle (St. John's East, PC): Madam Speaker, issues facing rural Canadians were missing from the throne speech. Protection of core industries including fisheries, agriculture and forestry was missing. A plan to increase the number of health care workers was missing. A commitment to equip and support military men and women was missing. A plan to make sure our environment is not a hazard to our health is ad hoc and unpersuasive. These are bread and butter issues. The issue of student debt, as the member for St. John's West said, was missing as well.

Would the member agree that some of the most important issues facing rural Canadians were left out of the throne speech?

Mr. Greg Thompson: Madam Speaker, I do want to thank the member because last evening we shared our time on this very important debate. He is perfectly correct. Rural issues, one of them being agriculture, the others being forestry and certainly fishing and many of the other things the member has spoken on are missing from the throne speech.

This is an example of how the Prime Minister has squandered his political capital in nine years of government. There is no question about it. Even today the government is somewhat popular in terms of public support. That is political capital that the Liberals have. The Prime Minister has refused to spend any of that political capital to do the things that are necessary to move the country ahead.

There is one example which I often use. Today in relation to our U.S. neighbours we are 30% poorer. The Canadian dollar is worth exactly 63¢ American. In some ways that may be good for trade, but what is it doing? There is a lack of efficiency, and productivity is suffering in this country. We are making up for it with a low dollar. There is going to be a big price for Canadians down the road. Future generations are going to pay for that.

Those are some of the issues the Prime Minister has refused to deal with as a prime minister, because it has always been to take the easy way out. The easy way out is not to deal with the problem. Future governments are going to be saddled with that.

If there is a leadership change on that side of the House and there is a new prime minister, God forbid what he or she will be left with when that guy is through at the helm because it will not be pretty. The fact is there are many issues that have not been dealt with by the government over the last nine years. Now he is trying to cram nine years into 18 months to leave a legacy that he, his family and the country can be proud of. However, he is falling far short of the mark.

I do not think he is going to have too much help on this side of the House and probably very little on that side of the House, given the numbers that showed up yesterday to hear the Prime Minister's remarks in the House. I have never seen such an absence of government members, a lack of enthusiasm for a prime minister in his own debate.

Yesterday over 100 members of the Liberal caucus were missing when the Prime Minister was in the House in the debate on the throne speech. Where were they? The truth is they were back in their offices hiding under their desks because they do not agree with the Prime Minister. They do not have any confidence in him.

I do not think the government is going to survive a year, let alone 16 months or 18 months.

(1550)

Mr. Jim Karygiannis (Scarborough—Agincourt, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I am wondering if the hon. member across the way is dreaming in technicolour, is watching colour TV, or is watching reality. Which part of nine years and three solid majorities in which the people of Canada spoke time and time again does he not understand?

He is saying that the Liberal members are hiding underneath their desks. I have news for him. We are out there talking to people.

Could he tell us which state of mind he is in?

Mr. Greg Thompson: Madam Speaker, I would like the member to name just one cornerstone achievement of the government that he represents, because basically the cupboard is empty. He cannot do it.

The only one the government ever falls back on is the deficit reduction, and we accept that, but the fact is that Canada is more indebted today than when it took office, to the tune of $550 billion.

[Translation]

Hon. Denis Coderre (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I am very honoured to rise, as Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, and of course as the member for Bourassa, and add my voice and take part in this extraordinary effort that is the Speech from the Throne.

This Speech from the Throne, entitled Le Canada que l'on veut/The Canada we want, delivered by Her Excellency the Governor General two days ago, shows just how responsible our government is, and just how ambitious, yet attainable, our plans are.

Obviously, much has been said about the health care system that we hold dearly, and that we want. Much has also been said about the role of youth, particularly how to fight poverty and deal with the problems that exist in various communities and to see how we can work toward improving representation and providing for a greater impact in all communities. Reference was made to a new urban strategy, establishing a better relationship between government and citizens and ensuring that Canada is doing all that it can.

[English]

The Speech from the Throne is very important. It sets out the tremendous approach that we have in mind. We have been here for the last nine years and we have shown that we are a responsible government. We also have shown that we are very profound. We still have a lot of things to do.

Thanks to our Prime Minister, and it will probably be his last Speech from the Throne, it shows a great inspiration and that, with the government and the caucus, we are clearly connected to the people.

However we have to talk about another issue. This country is built on immigration. Immigration is the foundation of our House. It is clearly important that we focus on that. I was thrilled that our government will be focused also on immigration because, not only do we have all those statistics, the last census showed us that immigration is not only a clear asset, a catalyst for our own population, but it is also a matter of survival.

[Translation]

The most recent census was very clear. In the next five years, there will be a shortfall of one million qualified workers. By 2011, our workforce will be entirely dependent on immigration. However, by 2025, our demographic growth will be entirely dependent on immigration. What does this mean?

This means that if we want to maintain our quality of life, if we really want to be able to preserve our social programs, we will need to use immigration as a tool for development. It is with these tools found in the Speech from the Throne that we will be able to come up with the solutions for tomorrow.

[English]

For the Canada we want and the society we want to build together, immigration is truly the solution. We do not consider immigrants or refugees as potential terrorists. We do not believe that we should shut the door. We have to find a balanced approach between vigilance and openness. This is the pragmatic approach that we need to take.

[Translation]

This is, of course, a situation we need to deal with. This does not mean we are not taking our responsibilities. We have a situation of concentration that needs to be addressed.

Last year, we had close to 250,000 new arrivals. Of these, 54% settled in Toronto, 15% in Vancouver, and 13% in Montreal. There is very often another concentration that occurs as well. Even if their port of entry is Montreal or Vancouver, many of these new arrivals end up heading to Toronto, Canada's metropolis.

We must therefore work together to establish a new partnership. We need to be sure to be able to find solutions to disperse immigration and we most certainly need to find tools to retain immigration.

For this reason I am extremely pleased to announce that, on October 15 and 16, we will be holding a first ever federal-provincial-territorial conference where all of my colleagues in the provinces and territories will be working together in a spirit of respect for the specific situations and agreements in place, to find the necessary tools to enable all of our people and all of our regions to benefit from this national treasure that is immigration.

(1555)

[English]

It is clearly a priority for us. Remember the end of the 19th century or the beginning of the 20th century when the Hon. Clifford Sifton, a tremendous minister of immigration, a true Liberal, a true Grit, put forward some great ideas to populate western Canada. He was offering a piece of land for those who wanted to come to Canada and be part of that treasure. That piece of land today is knowledge. That piece of land now is skills. We have to find a win-win situation where every region and every citizen of the country can receive all the services they have the right to have, but at the same time to give a clear path for those who want to come with their families and who clearly want to build a future for their families and children, but at the same time they want to work in their own field.

How can we make that happen? I think in the Speech from the Throne we have all the tools. Immigration, of course, is a cycle. It starts with the port of entry, then we have integration and finally we have citizens. We want to build this nation with new citizens and we are focusing on that, but we want to make sure it is an inclusive policy. We want to make sure that everyone has the occasion to participate. We want to have an Ontario strategy, an Atlantic Canada strategy, a Quebec strategy and a western Canada strategy. We also need something for the territories and B.C. We have to find proper solutions so everyone will be able to participate.

I was very pleased a few weeks ago to sign the ninth agreement between a provincial government and federal government called the provincial nominee program. It reflects what we have in mind for the future decades because, of course, immigration is an ongoing issue. It is not just a matter of making some decisions and then that is it. What we are deciding today and what we are looking at today in the Speech from the Throne, all the results of our solutions, all the results of what we want to put forward, will have an impact for the next 25 years.

What we had in mind was to build that partnership with Nova Scotia. I signed an agreement with Nova Scotia. Nova Scotians will have an opportunity, through their government, to build a new partnership where they can acquire more skilled workers. As a start, it is 200 skilled workers for the next five years. At the same time we added some clauses that show the reality of Canada.

[Translation]

I was extremely proud to demonstrate that immigration is not only a tool and a factor of development but also one that impacts on our own identity. The respect of official languages, a bilingual Canada, the linguistic duality so dear to us, which represents a fundamental value of our country, all this is reflected in the agreement. It is a matter of finding a developmental tool capable of giving a place in the sun and a balanced role to women and men, francophones and anglophones, one which will be a reflection of all communities.

It was with great pride that I announced that, with this agreement with Nova Scotia, we had a first as far as a clause on official languages was concerned. The Acadian people will therefore be able to play a part in this collective effort, to determine the requirements of their region, and to ensure that there will be skilled francophone workers in Nova Scotia.

[English]

We do not want to reinvent the wheel. We want to make sure that things will work. We need a pragmatic approach but we need to base that on values. That is why it is so important that the partnership we build will be in an inclusive way. There are a lot of things to do. It is an ongoing issue. What we have to do together is to take care of all those files and gather all the pieces of the puzzle so we can have a full portrait. There are a lot of things we have to take care of.

Of course I was pretty pleased last June to announce that not only had we put in force the new Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, but at the same time we had a series of new regulations that will bring more skilled workers, tradespeople and people who have Ph.D.s, people who truly want to come and help us build our nation.

There are other people we have to take care of. I see too many taxi drivers. They are doing a tremendous job. I have tremendous conversations with them. However when I see a microbiologist, a doctor from another country who is a taxi driver, I think we have to do something about that. We have to focus once and for all on foreign credential recognition.

(1600)

This is why the federal-provincial-territorial conference is so important. It is a non-partisan issue. Everybody will have a say and everybody will be able to participate in the process because this is about Canada. This is about what kind of society we want to live in, what kind of society we want to develop together and what kind of future we want to deliver to our children.

One of the most important issues will be foreign credential recognition. When we respect that and when work together with other provinces and territories, we will have to focus on professional cooperation. If we need some doctors, nurses or engineers, we will have to find a process to make sure that people who are coming from India, the Philippines or wherever with their families to help build this nation do not have to wait years and years before being what they want to be in this country.

[Translation]

I was shocked to find out that there are still unspeakable things going on. Recently, I was in Sainte-Anne-des-Monts as part of a tour of Quebec and I met a doctor. He was originally from Haiti. As hon. members know, the Haitian diaspora is present in my riding of Bourassa. Therefore, I was very pleased to talk with him about what is going on in his country of origin.

He told me that he came to Canada in 1977. Imagine: he became a doctor and was able to practise in 1992. This is unspeakable, considering that there are crying needs and people who believe they are second class citizens because they are not getting the services to which they are entitled. We will have to make sure that this process is in place, once and for all.

This partnership cannot become a reality unless we manage to establish it with professional bodies, while respecting the existing jurisdictions and process.

[English]

I believe that Canada is not only Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver. I believe that Canada is Kelowna, Okanagan, Chicoutimi, Saguenay now. It is also Corner Brook, Cambridge and Mississauga.

We have to find a better way, and to do so I will propose an action plan to my provincial colleagues where we will be able to have the skilled workers that we need in every nation of the country.

How can we do it? Frankly, we need a pragmatic approach. We could provide a temporary work permit for three to five years. We settle the issue of due process. We have to be respectful of the Canadian standards. It is not about lowering the standards, it is about respecting them but having a clear process. If we need some nurses in North Bay, Ontario, and we have done all our homework and there is no way to fill the vacancies except by people from outside the country, so be it. We will say “You want to come to Canada, benefit from this great nation and be part of this great treasure, let us do it together. Come to North Bay for three to five years, bring your children and family. After three to five years we will automatically grant you permanent residence”.

I know there probably are some lawyers listening to us saying that there is a Charter of Rights of Freedoms and we are forcing people to stay there. No, we are not doing that. It is already in the law. Remember the example of the farmers. We had an agreement with Mexico and the Caribbean that when people come during the summer to help us with our crops and harvest, they can have temporary work permits and they can work in specific locations.

Let us be frank. People in the RCMP or in the military are told where to go when they graduate. It is a pragmatic approach. We are telling people to come to Canada and we will make things happen.

(1605)

[Translation]

So, this is not only a pragmatic approach that will allow us to meet the public's needs, it will also guarantee a future for those who want to be part of our country.

We—namely all members of Parliament and all political parties—can only benefit from working together to find a solution, because what we decide now will impact on the future.

There are of course other issues that we must examine. We talk about immigration, but we should talk about citizenship. There is a real need to review the legislation on citizenship, and we will review it.

Earlier, during members' statements, I heard my colleague from Nova Scotia talk about the issue of war criminals. I want to make it clear that we have zero tolerance for war criminals. We must do everything we can to deal with this problem. There is no prescription or limitation in public law. However, we must ensure efficiency. We must ensure that the system will meet our needs and allow us to deal efficiently with the root cause of the problem.

We will also have to reflect on issues like citizenship. We must promote citizenship. We need to reflect on the mechanisms of citizenship. We must reflect on the issue of adoption. We must reflect on all kinds of issues that touch on our values as Canadians.

This is why we will have new immigration legislation, which I plan on tabling very shortly this fall.

Obviously there is the whole issue of revocation of citizenship. I am looking forward to working together with all of my colleagues in order to get their input on this matter. Citizenship is important.

With respect to revocation, there are several schools of thought. We must ensure that we are truly valuing citizenship, and if we want to revoke citizenship, we have to see if what we are currently doing is sufficient.

There is one issue that is very important to us, and that is foreign students. We must focus our attention on foreign students.

[English]

The foreign student is clearly the cement between the bilateral and the multilateral approach between countries. I had a great occasion this summer to go with some of my colleagues to China. We were building what we call the China strategy. Of course, I had some people from the Korean community ask about what the Korean strategy is. Okay, why not? We will build it.

China was an important trip for us because last year not only did we have 40,000 new immigrants of Chinese origin but at the same time we had 14,000 foreign students from China. It was very important to focus and make sure that we can build on that. As members know, we changed the law so that those people who are coming from outside as foreign students will be able to apply and become Canadians in the field right now in Canada. We want to do more. We want to do better. I truly believe it will be very helpful, not only to promote the Canadian standard but at the same time if those people after that are willing to come to Canada it will be even more efficient to do it in that way.

Last but not least, I think we need a sectoral approach. Regarding skilled workers, I do not see any problem in sitting down with industry and with the provincial governments and finding the best way. If in a certain area within the pharmaceutical industry we need to facilitate the ways to bring more skilled workers into some region, so be it, but we need a process and we need to be fair, as long as we remember that it is a balanced approach between vigilance and openness.

Of course, we could speak for hours. The refugee issue is also very important for us. We had an accord in principle with the Americans regarding the safe third agreement. We put in more resources for immigration control officers. Together we brought back a prevention policy that will help us to fulfill our international duty. This fall, we are willing to go further and to discuss these issues.

All these issues are about Canada and, in conclusion, I truly believe that if we have the same dream as Clifford Sifton's at the beginning of the 20th century, that of providing that piece of land, it is today to provide that opportunity to make this country better and to make sure that we have those people who really want to contribute, because for those bad apples who think that they can do something here, we will take care of that.

(1610)

[Translation]

I am very honoured to be associated with this government, with this Speech from the Throne, and with all those who seek to strike the balance between openness and vigilance, which makes this, once again, the best country in the world.

[English]

Mr. Paul Forseth (New Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby, Canadian Alliance): Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the minister a couple of very specific questions. It would certainly help our debate today in having confidence that the government is a competent manager.

He mentioned the category of foreign students and also temporary workers. It is special status when someone comes to Canada under that basis. Later on in his remarks he said that those individuals would be able to get landed status and eventually apply for citizenship. During the time individuals are here, as either foreign students or under a special contract as a temporary worker, would that time count for applying for citizenship or would they have to start once they get landed status?

My second question relates to his reference to the national lack of confidence in our refugee system. The minister talked about third safe country with the United States. Does he not have anything better to say than just “we are going to have further discussions in the fall”? I repeatedly asked the previous minister in the House about getting on with making proper security arrangements with the United States. When are we going to stop taking refugees from the U.S.A.? I understand that the claims are in the area of about 40%. Certainly we can do better than just further discussions.

Those are my two points: foreign students and temporary workers and the time limits, and also some new announcement that we are going to get on with dealing with the problem of refugees. I would appreciate his comments.

[Translation]

Hon. Denis Coderre: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question, but he does not have it quite right.

First, a person must be a permanent resident in order to launch the citizenship process. Until they are a permanent resident, that process cannot begin. But it is important for us to find the tool we need to put things in order and above all to respond to the needs of a society short of skilled workers.

We must find a way to direct our efforts towards solving the problem of concentration. If we want immigrants to settle throughout Canada, if we want to retain them, there are some good projects.

Manitoba has made a start, with the provincial nominee program. You have 200 to begin with and we are now up to 1,000. The retention rate is 91%.

I am also pleased to say that we have an agreement with Quebec which is working very well. It is specific; it is in the legislation. We do not want to change it. I myself met with Minister Trudel a few weeks ago, and we agreed on these convergence tools.

It is important for the regions and it is important for the public. If we do nothing, some regions will empty. If we want to ensure that we have a way of helping the francophone community to grow, wherever it is in Canada, we must have a process that works. We can do something about the problem with students, with skilled workers, who will be temporary workers.

(1615)

[English]

Regarding safe third, we could speak for hours and have a debate on that issue. I disagree with my colleague regarding refugees. Of course there is a process that we have to take care of, but for the last three years when we have a system that can welcome 25,000 to 29,000 refugees, and the average of the last three years is about 45,000 to 49,000, we have to do something about it especially when six out of ten are coming from a land border or coming from the United States.

That is the reason we signed that agreement in principle. Of course there is a process that we have to be respectful of. It is a matter of treaty, as members know. We signed an agreement that not only will respect the Canadian way but will help us to continentally regulate the system for those people who come to Canada as refugee claimants.

Since 1985 and the Singh affair, my colleague knows that we have a legal obligation to give a proper hearing. The only way to make sure that we are giving the proper hearing is that he would be sent back to a safe third country. That is the reason why we signed that agreement and is also the reason why the UNHCR signed that agreement with us and said it was very positive.

Of course efficiency is a priority. We always have to improve, but I really believe that this is a model for the rest of the world.

[Translation]

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): There are five minutes left. We can hear five members, if they all ask a question and the minister responds.

[English]

Mr. Jim Karygiannis (Scarborough—Agincourt, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I overwhelmingly applaud my colleague, the minister of immigration, for putting forth the equalization of credentials from people who are coming from foreign countries. This is something communities have wanted for a long time.

However, I want to take the minister to what happens inland here in Canada. I remember when I came to this country. Then, if tourists came here and liked it, they could walk down to University and Dundas and within a couple of months they could have their paperwork done. That was in 1966. The number of people coming to Canada in 1967 was 223,000. Today, with computers, more staff, more information--

Mr. Scott Reid: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Questions and comments are not prepared speeches. I cannot help but notice that the hon. member is reading from a prepared text--

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): It is questions and comments, so I am a servant of the House, but I did request, in order to allow all the members to ask their questions to the minister because the minister was only here for a certain amount of time, if members would just ask the question and we could have an answer. Out of courtesy to all the members who have questions, I would appreciate it if the hon. member would ask his question.

Mr. Jim Karygiannis: Madam Speaker, the difficulty we face today is that people who come to this country and who might find someone here and marry them are having to wait up to three years for their paperwork to go through. I have discussed this matter with the minister and his predecessors. I wonder if the minister today could let us know how he is proposing to take away this three-year wait that is happening in my riding of Scarborough. These people have absolutely no status. They cannot work. They cannot have health care. What if someone were to get sick? Or if a wife were to become pregnant, the child born would be a Canadian and the father would have to bear the brunt of having to pay for the medical coverage of the birth. In light of this, I am wondering if the minister has anything in new proposals.

(1620)

Hon. Denis Coderre: Madam Speaker, it would take more than 30 seconds to answer. Indeed, the reason we changed the legislation and the regulation was to address those kinds of issues. We talk a lot about skilled workers but we also can talk about family reunification. It is clearly a priority for us.

Efficiency is also the name of the game. We have to take a closer look. Of course every case is specific so we should take a closer look at that, but we are totally dedicated to making the system work. We saw in the Speech from the Throne that this is a priority for the government when we are talking about immigration. We want to create the proper environment to make sure that the person coming here will be able to bring family. That is what we are dedicated to.

Mr. Svend Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): Madam Speaker, I know time is limited so I will try to be brief. I want to congratulate the minister on two specific initiatives. One is with respect to control of immigration consultants. We know there has been serious abuse in that area. Second is the recognition of foreign credentials. It is long overdue and I welcome that. I want to ask two specific questions.

First I will ask for an assurance from the minister that there will be absolutely no weakening in the government's resolve to ensure that those who are alleged to have been responsible for war crimes, Nazi war crimes, will in fact be brought to justice in Canada or will be denaturalized and deported.

My second specific question is with respect to the recent denial of a visa to the foreign minister of Taiwan who was in Seattle and wanted to come north to Vancouver for a very brief visit with a representative of the Taiwanese economic and cultural office in Vancouver. He was denied a visa. It was shameful. Taiwan is a thriving, vibrant democracy and a strong trade partner. I would like to ask the minister if he will assure the House that this mistake will not be repeated.

Hon. Denis Coderre: Madam Speaker, first I would like to thank my colleague and announce that tomorrow morning we will have an important press conference where we will talk specifically about what we intend to do with immigration consultants. We will make a major and clear announcement for the future.

As for the specific case of his colleague from Taiwan, I do not know what happened. Maybe there is always a way. A lot of my colleagues around here come to me when there are specific issues. Maybe we should take a closer look at that, but it is always a matter of an approach balanced between vigilance and openness. I will not comment on the specifics, but we should talk about it.

Regarding the war crimes, frankly there is zero tolerance. It is zero tolerance and we want to be focused. It is not a matter of years or money; it is a matter of efficiency. It is not just about World War II. It is about what happened in Rwanda, in Kosovo and in several places in the world. We want to make sure that Canada is clearly dedicated against those war criminals. Specifically, when we talk about the legislation of citizenship it might be a great opportunity to reinforce that.

[Translation]

Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, BQ): Madam Speaker, I am amazed that the minister, who was accused during the caucus meeting in the Saguenay by more than 2,000 demonstrators of having misled the public by making campaign promises at the time of the last election about major changes to be made to employment insurance, has not risen in this House today, when he can comment on the throne speech, to speak out against his government. He made promises, committed to significant changes during the election campaign. He heard from the 2,000 protesters in the Saguenay, who had understood very clearly that they had been misled, that they had been betrayed by the minister.

Should this minister not resign, or take a position against his government in order to honour his commitments, rather than burying his head in the sand and continuing to play politics? He made formal commitments that have not been honoured, and has thus misled people who have had $40 billion stolen from them by the government since 1993.

Hon. Denis Coderre: Madam Speaker, I find that regrettable. I went to Rivière-du-Loup on several occasions; I visited the member's riding on several occasions. People tell me “Mr. Coderre, we want solutions that will make us feel like full-fledged citizens. We too have our place in the sun”.

As for the future former member for Rivière-du-Loup, I think he would do better to look at what is going on in his riding than try to play politics. We are doing serious work here.

When it was time to vote on this bill, he again opposed it, because the Bloc Quebecois is now motivated less by passion than by pension, and is focussing on temporary effects in an attempt to make political hay out of them.

Mr. Paul Crête: You betrayed the public.

Hon. Denis Coderre: We have betrayed no one here. Madam Speaker, I ask that the member be made to withdraw the word “betrayed”. There is no traitor on this side of the House.

(1625)

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): I would ask the member for Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques if he wishes to withdraw the word “betrayed”.

Mr. Paul Crête: Madam Speaker, I maintain that the minister betrayed the public by not honouring this commitments. He was told this in Chicoutimi by 2,000 people, who allowed us to speak on their behalf, while you people did not even dare to come out of your hotel because you were too afraid.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): The hon. member may continue debate, because this is a debate; he said “betrayed the public”, and this is not an attack on a member or a minister.

[English]

Mr. Paul Forseth (New Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby, Canadian Alliance): Madam Speaker, I will be splitting my time.

I have represented my community in every throne speech debate since the 1993 election. The Liberal pattern has been to tantalize with messages to make Canadians feel good as offer generalities and hints of a political direction. On the surface, many of these former throne speeches have created some temporary hope for national achievement. Then subsequent administration has not fulfilled that anticipation.

I want to applaud the government for mentioning national economic fundamentals for I have always said that a strong economy is the foundation of a strong society. The government must also provide the right balance of programs for people, such as health care and education. However I wonder if some advocacy groups today will be very happy with the throne speech.

For example, in a previous throne speech in January 2001 there was given an expectation, which today we can observe was not fulfilled. Here we go again. I quote from a January 2001 commentary about a former throne speech. It says:

The speech from the throne is the signal that this government plans to ensure that all Canadians share the prosperity of Canada, and especially those people who have been shut out from the prosperity time and again.

We were particularly pleased by the emphasis on promoting a healthy democracy in which leadership can come from everyone. In the view of the National Council of Welfare, making sure that all Canadians share in Canada's riches must include the highest possible level of public participation.

That was a quote from nearly two years ago. Where are we today? What has changed for the better? The government cannot hide how poor they have been. This throne speech was just too predictable. Called “The Canada We Want”, the speech does not reflect the government we need. It is a pedestrian laundry list of intentions and largely a repeat of much of what was needed to be done. High priority items were not mentioned. Many of the points should and could have been done years earlier. This statement certainly will not inspire Canadians. They must be saying, “Is that all there is?”

The biggest cost item is the Kyoto protocol. Parliament will be forced to vote on it without any sound basis of cost. There will likely be no cost benefit analysis laid before Parliament. The government will go forward on mostly environmental goodwill and emotion looking for the votes rather than working for Canada's fundamental international interest. Is the average family better off economically this year? Do we have more participatory democracy?

We do not have that, but what we do have now, I am sad to say, is a lot of talk about legacy rather than leadership, promises rather than policy. We are no further ahead. In fact we have slipped and continue to slide on the United Nations index of nations. On the world market our dollar buys less than it ever has before. The dollar value benchmark is one that the government cannot hide from or explain. It is the world's judgment about our economy now and our future prospects. The low dollar represents the undeniable failure of the government to meet the people's needs.

Significantly, in the throne speech there is no clear ultimatum to finally fix medicare once and for all, but just more talk and deliberations with the provinces. It has always been my community promise to compliment and help the government when it appears to be going in the right direction. It is my parliamentary duty to hold the government accountable when it strays and falls short. It is also my commitment to a vision that I provide constructive alternatives and improvements for the betterment of Canada.

I oppose the throne speech and the government today because Canada can do better. I hope that I will again be elected as the official opposition vice-chair of the House Standing Committee of Government Operations and Estimates. There we anticipate breaking new ground with this committee, to greatly enhance the accountability of government spending plans and examine the efficacy of much of the spending that is statutory and does not come before Parliament each year. It is about accountability and also about doing the right things. It is what a throne speech should be all about.

Parliament needs better oversight of where most of the taxpayer money is going. We have not had that under the former finance minister since 1993. In fact he is so out of it that he even voted in a lark for the Tobin tax on an NDP motion.

(1630)

That is an esoteric international socialist idea to tax international monetary flows and redistribute world income. Heaven help Canada if this rogue has his way as prime minister in view of his past performance.

His one claim to significance was even a borrowed policy from us to balance the national books. However he did not have the wherewithal for the whole package, balanced budget legislation or programmed pay down of the national debt.

Even as we as a country stand shoulder to shoulder with our allies, it is necessary that we are not diverted from protecting the Canadian way of life. We must balance national security needs with the Canadian Alliance long term agenda for building a more prosperous, inclusive and democratic society.

Regardless of the mediocre government leadership we have had, Canada is still one of the world's success stories. We enjoy prosperity and a higher quality of life compared to many on the globe. We have grown from a small agrarian people at Confederation to a complex, multicultural economic powerhouse. However we recall that we were not touched on our shores by World War II and we emerged at that time on top of the social and industrial world order. Sadly our great leadership position has been squandered since then and now we can count ourselves lucky just to remain in the G-8 of countries.

In the global knowledge economy our world position will depend upon innovation as we invest in the future of science and research and skill development. We must do better to invest in the new technology but also help young Canadians to get a head start. With a more principled government, it could be envisioned that someday our people would find a culture of freedom and inclusion. More than ever we need a skilled workforce and an innovative economy for everyone.

Innovation is the bridge between today and tomorrow; between fresh ideas and new opportunities for all Canadians. Canada must become more debt free, keep inflation and unemployment low and become more internationally competitive in tax and regulatory structure. The barriers to greatness as a nation are often ones of our own making, such as the socialist bad habits, the politics of envy and regional resentment.

What I am saying is that Canada's fall from international leadership is Canadian made. Our missed opportunities or also-ran status as a nation is a legacy of Liberal and Conservative governments. What we really need is more freedom. We need the basic freedom to move goods, capital and labour. We need the freedom to learn, through investments in education and skill development. We need the freedom to become, through participatory democracy and support for rights.

I love my country. We are a blessed nation and there is no better place to live. Indeed we are a great country but we have accomplished much, not because we have had great governments. Our achievements have not come from great political leaders. We are favoured because it is the Canadian people who have built a great society. Canadians have overcome geography. We have made cultural and language differences an advantage rather than a problem. It is the people who paid the price for peace and justice. Graves of brave Canadians around the world is the testament.

The many waves of arrivals to our shores made their contributions. First, aboriginals came in successive migrations. Then the Europeans and Asians came in many waves. We became a destination of hope and opportunity. We now have a rich cultural mix which gives us an international advantage.

However Canada remains below its potential. We are poorly led and not wisely governed. The old habit of electing either a Conservative or Liberal federal government is not good enough any more. Canadians can do better. Canada can earn its way to the top if we forsake our old ways of voting.

We must vote for our children's future, rather than old prejudice. We must vote greater democracy, rather than Liberal and Conservative special interest.

Canadians can free themselves by electing a Canadian Alliance government. Canada has everything it needs to be the best.

Our task in the next two years is to give us a government worthy of the good Canadian people. We must vote to build, rather than just to avoid risk. We must vote for achievement, rather than old loyalties. Canadians must vote to give themselves a prosperous democracy that includes everyone, where no corner of the land is left behind.

The best is yet to come for Canada. I believe that it is not overreaching to say that we can be the world leader, to make a truly peaceful and sustainable world.

(1635)

Mr. Rob Merrifield (Yellowhead, Canadian Alliance): Madam Speaker, it is a privilege and a pleasure for me to speak in response to the throne speech as the hon. member for Yellowhead and as opposition health critic.

As Parliament resumes, the minds of Canadians are on the state of the beleaguered health care system. What they see and what too many Canadians have experienced is a system that is under decay and under a tremendous amount of stress. Look at the strikes going on from coast to coast right now, or the acute problems with wait times, which are absolutely phenomenal, or the nursing shortage or human resources problem.

On the nursing shortage we can say that projections for growth in that field are such that we will need 113,000 new nurses by 2011. That will hinder patient care in tremendous ways, ways in which we have no idea at the present time.

When we look at how we are doing in comparison with other OECD nations, we see that we rank 18th when it comes to access to MRIs. We are 17th in CT scanners and 8th in radiology equipment. It is no wonder and no surprise that Canadian confidence in the health care system is decaying and waning at the present time.

An example of this is that in 1988 a study was done and 43% of Canadians said that they thought the system was fundamentally flawed. Last year the same study was done again and an astounding figure of 77% came forward. Clearly the patient is ailing.

The Liberal health care legacy of underfunding and neglect has come home to roost. The Prime Minister and the former finance minister presided over the massive cuts in the middle of the 1990s and the consequences of that action at the time are being felt now in today's health care system.

The Prime Minister and the former minister of health announced the Romanow commission almost two years ago. It was a desperate attempt by the Liberal government to just buy more time. That is exactly what happened. Then they sat back and comfortably waited while somebody else tried to do the dirty work and wrestled with the tough problems of reforming the health care system. We are waiting for the report in November of this year.

It is not the first time we have seen this action by the Liberal government. We remember the National Forum on Health in 1997. Its report sits on the proverbial shelf collecting dust. We can see that this is a ploy the government has used once before.

There are some things the Liberal government does do well. It studies health care. We asked the Library of Parliament how much money had been spent by the Liberal government since 1993 just to study health care. A figure of $243 million came back. The Liberal government has shown a grave lack of leadership when it comes to health care over the last 10 years. All the problems I just mentioned lay right at the feet of the Liberal government. Nobody else can take responsibility for them.

The health highlight of the throne speech was the announcement of the forthcoming first ministers conference early next year and the necessary federal funding that would have to go into investments in the long term security of our health care system. I say better late than never, but did we really need a throne speech for that announcement?

Most of the other health care items offered in the throne speech consisted of vague promises on health protection, prevention and aboriginal health. Many of these are just recycled ideas. We have heard them many times before in previous throne speeches. We could go through the last eight or ten throne speeches and there are similarities in all of them.

Here is just one of the examples. I quote, “The government will take further action to close the gap in health status between aboriginal and non-aboriginal Canadians”. That is a worthy goal, but we have heard that many times before. It is no wonder the aboriginal community is thinking that this government speaks with a forked tongue on that.

Some alarming numbers came out earlier this week. They show that the rate of diabetes among first nations peoples is two to three times that of the Canadian population as a whole. The amount of tuberculosis on native reserves is eight to ten times higher than for the Canadian population.

The government should acknowledge that its current aboriginal policies are failing. It should announce firm targets for improving aboriginal health and life status.

I was particularly concerned about the government's pledge to speed up drug safety approval. We have a drug problem in the country and it is a serious problem. Up to 10,000 Canadians die each year because of avoidable prescription drug reactions. Up to 46% of our seniors receive at least one inappropriate prescription per year.

(1640)

The Vanessa Young inquiry cited a number of problems in Health Canada's drug safety regime. The minister's rebranded Marketed Health Products Directorate still cannot remove drugs from the market.

Do not get me wrong. We are not opposed to bureaucrats working faster or more efficiently to speed up drug approvals. There are some very good benefits in that. However this is clearly a matter of the cart going before the horse and announcing faster drug approvals before adequately addressing the drug safety concerns that we have across this nation.

One glaring omission in the throne speech was the mention of the government's plan of dealing with the possible bioterror attack. Last year the government promised to obtain the smallpox vaccine for every Canadian. The government still has not obtained that vaccine. Where is the long-range plan that the government promised Canadians? By the way, where is the reproductive technology bill that was also promised? It met the same fate once before of dying on the order paper, so it is not the first time that has happened.

Canadians could be forgiven for having expected some leadership on health care this week from the government. However on most fronts, they were very sorely disappointed.

The government will soon be reviewing the recommendations of the Romanow report. As it prepares to do so, the official opposition should offer some principles and proposals that would guide its deliberations.

The Canadian Alliance is clear about its values on health care. Our policy states our commitment to ensuring that “timely, quality and sustainable health care is available to every Canadian, regardless of their financial means”.

The Canadian Alliance supports adequate, stable funding and transparent funding for health care. More funding will be required to shore up our ailing health care system and to place it on a firmer footing for the years and decades ahead. I am pleased to see an acknowledgment of this in the throne speech. However the federal transfer for health care has only now surpassed what it was back in 1993 and 1994. In the meantime, we have a population growth of 8% and an increase of over 15%, and our population is also growing older at the same time. Therefore, the federal government's contribution is 14¢ on every dollar right now. That is a far cry from the fifty-fifty split of a generation ago.

In putting more funding into health care, the government should resist its natural urge. Guess what that is? To raise taxes. Canadians do not want to pay any more taxes. Believe it or not, we would not want to see the finance minister jump from that Peace Tower. However, the government has chopped $25 billion from the CHST, but has left $16 billion a year in questionable grants and contributions. This is all about priorities or the lack of them.

It must be noted that more money, in the absence of other reforms, is not a viable or long term solution. This has been the recognition of many of those who have taken a look at our health care system over the last couple of years, whether it be Fyke, Mazankowski, Clair, Kirby or Romanow.

In return for more funding there must be a greater accountability of how that money is spent. The government must use this opportunity of another cash injection to encourage health reform and efficiencies.

We also reiterate the call for stable funding for health care. To prevent the kind of unprecedented, unilateral cuts inflicted by the Prime Minister and the former finance minister in the mid-nineties, we must entrench the commitment in the Canada Health Act for stable funding.

The Canada Health Act needs to be modernized. All five of the act's principles are routinely compromised. Moreover, there is a growing recognition that the act does not make provisions for important contributions such as quality, timeliness, sustainability or accountability. New provisions need to be added in the act.

The delivery of health care has changed dramatically since the act was passed in 1984. Through the development of new technologies, drug therapies and new treatment options, what constitutes medically necessary needs to be revisited in an era of new medical technologies and those therapies. A view of the scope of the services covered under the public system should be undertaken as a viable component of the first ministers consultation after Romanow.

I want to address the controversial issue of the private involvement in our public health care system. The provinces should have the maximum flexibility around health care delivery within a universal health care system, and I stress within a universal health care system.

(1645)

The Canada Health Act discourages private payment of medically necessary health care services but does not prohibit nor does it discourage private delivery of those services. What is important is not who provides a service but that the service is provided and that it is provided in a timely and a quality fashion regardless of the individual's financial means to pay.

As our leader pointed out yesterday, the government monopoly is not the only way to deliver health care to Canadians. The federal health minister cannot stop the provinces from acting within their jurisdiction nor should she. Let me be clear. No province, no federal party, including the Canadian Alliance, is calling for a private parallel system.

Finally, the government owes it to Canadians to act quickly and responsibly once the Romanow commission report is called. Health care reform is too important to place on another waiting list. The government should act within 90 days after receiving the Romanow report.

Health care is the number one public policy priority of Canadians. It is clear that our system is in need of renewal. Health care requires innovative ideas and approaches in order to address the pressing challenges of increased expectations, escalating costs and aging population.

The Canadian Alliance will continue to engage the government in vigorous debate on the reform of the health care in this country. We will work--

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): I am sorry, the hon. member's time is up.

* * *

Business of the House

[Business of the House]

Hon. Don Boudria (Minister of State and Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam Speaker, there have been a number of consultations among all parties in the House. I am pleased to say that there is agreement for the following motion, and I will explain the purpose of it. This evening we were to have a debate, which would have lasted a long time, on a very important issue involving Iraq. The motion allows us to have a shorter debate this evening and to have one tomorrow evening to permit people to speak at hours that are more reasonable. In exchange, there would be no quorum calls either evening. I move:

That the final paragraph of the Order of September 30, 2002, respecting the take-note debate with regard to Iraq, be amended to read as follows:

That, at the ordinary time of daily adjournment on October 2, 2002 and 2003, the House continue to sit in order to resume the said debate, provided that, during the said debate, the Chair shall not receive any quorum calls, dilatory motions or requests for unanimous consent to propose any motion, and that, at 12:00 a.m. during the sitting of October 2, 2002, the debate shall be adjourned and the House shall adjourn and that, at 12:00 a.m. during the sitting of October 2003 or when no Member rises to speak, as the case may be, the motion shall be deemed to have been withdrawn and the House shall adjourn.

(1650)

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): The House has heard the terms of the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Some hon. members: Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

* * *

Speech from the Throne

Resumption of debate on Address in Reply

[The Address]

The House resumed consideration of the motion for an address to Her Excellency the Governor General in reply to her speech at the opening of the session, of the amendment and of the amendment to the amendment.

Mrs. Lynne Yelich (Blackstrap, Canadian Alliance): Madam Speaker, could the hon. member tell me if he believes that there is, as was mentioned in the throne speech, a paved and a speedy process for drugs, both illicit and prescription drugs? Would he explain what he thought of that particular clause in the throne speech?

Mr. Rob Merrifield (Yellowhead, Canadian Alliance): Madam Speaker, it is difficult to know exactly what is in that throne speech because the words are so vague.

There is some reference to illicit drugs. We all know the problem of illicit drugs in the country. It is acute, regardless of what our friends in the Senate. They perhaps would like to see marijuana legalized. I believe we have a serious problem with illicit drugs, but that was not the question.

The question refers to speeding up the process for prescription drugs. That is something we should take a serious look at because there are some up sides to that in the sense that faster, newer drugs and newer technologies have some benefits.

As we go into the 21st century drug therapies will be much more used than we have seen before. However, if we approve more before we deal with the abuses that are within the system right now, we will be making a terrible error. We have to look after the problem of abuse of prescription medications. It is an epidemic out there. It is something that we have talked about very little in the House and it is high time we started to do that.

Mr. Jerry Pickard (Chatham—Kent Essex, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for Scarborough—Agincourt.

September 30 was an important day for the government as it set out an ambitious plan for Canada's future. The Speech from the Throne 2002 outlined the next steps in the Liberal government's plan to build an ever-widening greater opportunity for all Canadians.

Since taking office in 1993 our Liberal government has worked hard with Canadians hand-in-hand to build an economic and social environment which is good for all Canadians. No one can deny the tatters in which the former government left Canada in 1993. We refer to the huge deficit, little direction, Canada's credit rating being downgraded, interest rates being intolerable and an environment where no one was satisfied.

Canadians looked at what the former government had done and virtually wiped it out. There was good reason for that because it did not have an agenda, it was not in touch with reality with Canadians and as a result Canadians would not support it.

Today I note that many of the opposition have no reality with Canadians again. Canadians tell me that since 1993 the government has done a fabulous job in its economic work. The government has done a tremendous job reducing the deficit. Our trade with other countries has dramatically increased.

Today we can talk about $2 billion a day flowing back and forth between Canada and the United States in trade. We can talk about the wonderful concepts of things moving forward.

When the opposition says the government has not paid any attention to health care I can say that there was an agreement signed in September 2000, where the government put on the table $21 billion to further advance health care.

However let us look at some of the things that were referenced in the throne speech. A throne speech, and everyone in the House knows, is not there to itemize and give in detail all the acts the government will be introducing. The throne speech is there to set direction and give ideas of where the government feels important issues need to go. It is a setting of priorities for Canadians and quite frankly health care was placed far up front in Canada's priorities.

There is no question that one of the ambitious steps put forward in the last Parliament was the appointment of Mr. Roy Romanow to look at health care across the country, to consult with all health care specialists, members of the House of Commons and with the provinces. He had a tremendous task.

I recall him coming to Parliament and listening to members of Parliament putting forth their ideas, concepts and their constituents' feelings about what health care needed to have to improve.

That takes time and there is no question that when we look at the throne speech, we look at the fact that Mr. Romanow's report will be laid on the table this fall. The throne speech made it clear that in the spring of next year the government will work on a comprehensive plan to deal with the recommendations that Mr. Romanow will put on the table. Anyone who suggests that the government is not serious, is not working hard at health care and is not concerned, is out of touch with what is going on. I would like to point out that if we look at a comprehensive plan in the year 2003 that does not mean that all health care problems will cease to exist.

(1655)

It means that we will put a plan together. We will have steps that we can work on. We will look at doctor shortages. We will look at facilities that would most accommodate drug restrictions and an aging society. All of those things are important to a comprehensive plan and cannot be answered in a minute or two as the opposition would suggest.

The Prime Minister made it clear that children and low-income families are most important. In the throne speech we heard of families and family support, energies put toward helping those children who need a lot of extra care and extra benefits. We know that education is a key important issue to ensure that younger people have the greatest opportunity possible in this country.

The government has laid on the table that quality of life, sharing economic prosperity, low-income families with better benefits, and fair and proper education for all young people are high priorities. That is extremely important when we realize that in the future our young people will lead this nation and be responsible for all of the progress that goes forward. That is clear to me.

I heard the opposition talking about the tremendous costs of Kyoto but I have not heard a word about the positive benefits or the commitments around the world. Last week I was in Japan. The first thing the Japanese said to the Canadian delegation was to ensure that Kyoto was approved. Why? Because it is important to the world community.

It is important that a nation like Canada shows world leadership in cleaning up our environment. It is important that we put actions and activities in place that will make the future of young people and future generations much better. I have no doubt that if we start looking at Kyoto there are great benefits that can be achieved.

In my riding I have an ethanol plant which is typical of ethanol plants found throughout the United States and some other areas of the world. That ethanol plant is world class. It generates a tremendous amount of green fuels which we know, if anyone looks at it, benefits society dramatically. It ends a lot of bad pollution problems in our major cities. It helps with jobs in the farm and rural communities across the nation. It is a facility by which we can improve our environment, our air quality, and at the same time we can employ Canadians and build a nation of greater strengths.

Within the Kyoto protocol there is no question that there are many good environmental projects that can be carried out to make this nation stronger, to make our future generations more healthy and to help the environment. I look forward to the debate on the Kyoto protocol accord.

It is clear in my mind that we must be cautious and careful about where we are going in the future and we must open to debate all of the issues. It is not really the government that sets down all the steps and says how much each step will cost. It is important that we listen to industry and talk about the barriers and the opportunities that industry has in things like the Kyoto accord.

It is important that we look at the infrastructure program that we have suggested. At the border, Windsor happens to be the bottleneck of Canada's trade. We must look at infrastructure that will improve that and do tremendous change for us.

(1700)

I believe that the Speech from the Throne is setting a direction which will carry on the tremendous Liberal development over the last several years. There is no question in my mind that Canada is far better off than it was under a Tory government with a huge debt and deficit increasing by $42 billion annually.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): Before I take questions and comments, because we have avid readers of Hansard, I want to ensure that everybody understood the motion that had been moved earlier because there was a question in terms of the date. I want to read into the record the exact motion that we all agreed to:

That, at the ordinary time of daily adjournment on October 2, 2002 and October 3, 2002, the House continue to sit in order to resume the said debate, provided that, during the said debate, the Chair shall not receive any quorum calls, dilatory motions or requests for unanimous consent to propose any motion, and that, at 12:00 a.m. during the sitting of October 2, 2002, the debate shall be adjourned and the House shall adjourn and that, at 12:00 a.m. during the sitting of October 3, 2002--

Not October 2003, as was earlier indicated:

--or when no Member rises to speak, as the case may be, the motion shall be deemed to have been withdrawn and the House shall adjourn.

Questions and comments.

(1705)

Mr. David Chatters (Athabasca, Canadian Alliance): Madam Speaker, I could not help but notice the many references to the Kyoto accord in the member's presentation. It always frightens me to listen to Liberal members who do not seem to understand what the Kyoto accord is all about and yet support it.

The member makes reference to improved air quality and reduction of air pollution. The Kyoto accord is about the reduction of CO₂ emissions, which in fact is an essential element of life on this planet. Many greenhouses pump it into the greenhouse to grow plants. Would the member tell me how reducing CO₂ will clean the air quality and how sending billions of dollars of Canadian money to Russia to buy credits when Russia produces six times the amount of CO₂ Canada does will help the environment in Canada?

Mr. Jerry Pickard: Madam Speaker, I think the member opposite is naive when he talks of Liberal members not knowing what is happening.

I believe the Alliance has been out of touch with Canadians that it shows in the numbers of people it has sitting in the House of Commons. I do not believe that at any time the government has lost seats or lost support. The fact is that if we go to the Kyoto accord and we start looking at green fuels, we are increasing the quality of air in all countries of the world. Oxygen is the base of all breathing animals. CO₂ is used by plants to ensure they grow better.

The member is right on one fact but he is only half right, as he always is. He does not follow the reality of what happens when too much CO₂ emission gets into the air. We are talking about all kinds of problems in urban centres, heating globally our environment, problems that are created by an imbalance of what the natural balance is in this country and industrial smog and emissions. They are caused by all kinds of other problems. In the greenhouses we do not create imbalances. We look at an environment where people live and talk about the best opportunity to have clean air and great oxygen content in the atmosphere.

Mr. Loyola Hearn (St. John's West, PC): Madam Speaker, I listened with interest to the comments made by my colleague from across the House. Will he tell us, because nobody has yet, what the government's plan is for addressing the Kyoto requirements and how much it will cost the people of Canada?

Mr. Jerry Pickard: Madam Speaker, when people ask what is the Kyoto accord, clearly they are asking the government to say exactly what the restrictions are going to be. People do not care what industry is saying. They do not care about consultation with industry. They do not care about how provincial governments feel about things. They do not want that consultation. They do not care about the viewpoints of members of the House of Commons. People want the government to put it down in rules. They want the government to put it down in a piece of legislation and not give that flexibility.

Since I have been in the House of Commons the government has been asked to be more open and receptive to ideas, clearly accepting the input that it can. Kyoto is very important. There will be legislation tabled in the House. The throne speech is not the process to be used to table legislation in the House of Commons. At the same time, a tremendous amount of consultation, a tremendous amount of work with industry and a tremendous amount of work with other governments is required in order to make sure we get it right. Those guys over there just have it wrong.

Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the Speech from the Throne was totally silent about a fairer and more equitable distribution of infrastructure money particularly with regard to excise taxes on gasoline. When will the government become fairer in its equitable distribution of those funds? It collected $572 million in excise taxes on gasoline.

(1710)

Mr. Jerry Pickard: Mr. Speaker, I believe the government's plan has been equitable on gasoline and equitable on all forms of energy across the country. We are in the process of developing new strategies by looking at wind power and other forms of power. We are a progressive government and we want to see green fuels move forward. We want to see a cleaner environment. As a result we are looking very carefully at policies that will achieve that.

Mr. Jim Karygiannis (Scarborough—Agincourt, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the Speech from the Throne which has been outlined so eloquently by many members in the last few days provides the framework under which we will govern the country over the next year.

Our plan will ensure a brighter future for all Canadians and strike the right balance between social spending and fiscal responsibility. It includes a commitment to balancing the budget, paying down the national debt, investing in health care, investing in families and children and protecting our environment, just to name a few. These initiatives are not new to the people of Canada as they are the initiatives that were promised during the last election campaign.

Health care has long been the major preoccupation of most people across Canada. In my riding of Scarborough--Agincourt it is by far the most important issue. The federal government must do more to ensure that quality health care is available on a timely and equal basis. The principles of the Canada Health Act must be adhered to across the country. The provinces and territories must have the resources to enact such policies. I am pleased that the government has made a commitment to address the health care concerns by hosting a premiers conference on health early in the new year.

Following our promises in the last election to reduce child poverty, we will commit more money for programs such as subsidized day care, income supplements for poor families and subsidized social housing.

We are also continuing with our commitment to upgrade the infrastructure of our cities to ensure that environmentally responsible transportation systems will help reduce congestion in our cities and bottlenecks in our trade corridors. I welcome these initiatives and look forward to their quick enactment.

The throne speech also addressed our commitment to ratify the Kyoto accord. Yesterday we heard the leader of the official opposition tell us that his party would use every possible trick in the book to block the Kyoto process to ensure that it is never ratified. If by some miracle his party ever formed the government, it would rescind this deal.

Yes, the evidence is clear. For a number of years now the United Nations has consulted some 2,500 top level scientists. These people have come to the conclusion that the human impact on world climate is very significant. These experts urged us to act as quickly as possible and to change our way of doing things and our way of living.

No international agreement is perfect. Kyoto is far from perfect. We could second guess them all. Yet this is a resolution taken by countries, particularly rich and industrialized countries, to change their ways of doing things, to live differently, to create and to produce things differently in order to save our planet. The fact is the richest and most fortunate countries are the ones that did nearly all the damage. They are the same countries that have benefited the most from the past few decades of unfettered developments. At the same time innocent nations, including small underdeveloped ones, have suffered from the causes generated by rich and developed countries.

One area of great concern to many of my constituents is that of immigration. The government has committed to ensuring that immigrants who come from every corner of the globe will be able to integrate more quickly into Canadian society and take advantage of the opportunities available to them.

The government has said it will work with its partners to break down the barriers to the recognition of foreign credentials and will fast-track the entry of skilled workers entering Canada with jobs already waiting for them. This will serve to position Canada as a destination of choice for talented foreign students and highly skilled workers by more aggressive selection and recruitment through universities and in key embassies abroad. I applaud our government's commitment in this regard. I know it will take negotiation with the provinces and territories and regulatory boards to make this happen, but these measures are long overdue.

One other area that was not addressed in the Speech from the Throne has to do with the low staffing levels of immigration offices in foreign embassies which has led to exceedingly long waiting periods for those wishing to come to Canada. Most of those waiting are family members of Canadian citizens who have sponsored their wives, husbands, brothers, sisters or parents and through no fault of their own have to wait up to two years before their family reunification becomes a reality.

(1715)

Demographics clearly show that Canada needs more immigrants now and in the future to ensure economic prosperity for our aging population. While this issue was not addressed in the Speech from the Throne, I can assure the House and the people of Scarborough--Agincourt that I will keep raising this matter until a successful resolution is achieved.

There is one thing that has concerned me many times. When young people come to Canada wishing to start new lives and they meet and marry a husband or a wife here in Canada, after they are married inside the country there is a process where the spouse can sponsor his or her partner. The process ends up in Vegreville. For whatever reason if Vegreville doubts their relationship or there is a question as to one of the partners being married before, or one of the partners comes from a country that leaks a lot of refugees into Canada, Vegreville will then send that decision to the local office.

If a person is unfortunate enough to live in areas such as Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver, and especially in my riding of Scarborough--Agincourt, the person could be waiting for a hearing with an immigration officer for up to three years; not one month, not two months, not 12 months, but 30 to 36 months. These figures have been creeping up slowly. Yet when the issue has been raised with successive immigration ministers, unfortunately it has not been listened to.

One thing we could easily do is provide speed for the spousal cases and put them at the front of the line. If they have to wait 30 to 36 months, then we could easily provide health care as well as a work permit.

If a young lady were to come to Canada and marry one of our sons and she were to become pregnant, that young lady would end up at the hospital and unfortunately, the husband, a landed immigrant or a citizen of Canada, would end up paying $10,000 to $15,000 for the young one to be born. We are talking about the birth of a Canadian, a child coming into the world who will be a taxpayer for the rest of his or her life. Yet we are taxing the parent in order for the child to come into this world. This is a great injustice. We have to move steadily and we have to move quickly.

If one of my daughters were to meet a young man and they wanted to get married and he wants to provide for his family, he will be hamstrung. He will not have the opportunity to do so.

I am asking and imploring that we find ways to make sure that the cases of these young couples move quickly. We must work with them rather than hinder them. We must work with them to start new lives. Let us work with them in order for them to be productive citizens in this country of ours. We bring in people from overseas. Why do we not also help our people here?

Mr. David Chatters (Athabasca, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the member made reference to man's catastrophic influence on our climate. Again, that reference bothers me. Science tells us that 3% of the world's CO₂ emissions are contributed by human activity and 97% of CO₂ emissions are produced by natural causes. How can that 3% cause such a catastrophic effect on our environment?

His colleague who spoke before him chose not to answer my question about sending billions of dollars to Russia. Russia produces six times the amount of CO₂ emissions that Canada does. How can that be helpful to our environment?

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Mr. Jim Karygiannis: Mr. Speaker, I will go back to my speech and reiterate the following. It is innocent nations, including small underdeveloped ones, that have suffered from the causes generated by rich and developed countries.

We live in a country where when people want to go to the corner store they jump in their cars and drive there. People in other countries do not have that luxury. I visited countries where children have to carry water for a mile in order to have drinking facilities. Here in Canada people do not think for 30 seconds before jumping in their cars to go to the corner store to buy milk or bread.

We have to change our ways. We have to change our thinking. We have to ratify the Kyoto accord, not tomorrow, not 10 years from now, but as soon as possible.

Mr. Loyola Hearn (St. John's West, PC): Mr. Speaker, I have two short questions for the hon. member.

He mentioned more income for poor families. This will probably be delivered through the child tax credit, so I wonder if the member thinks a sufficient amount can be delivered in such a manner to poor families to take them out of that circle of poverty, as has been mentioned.

Second, is not the member himself, as others should be, appalled by the fact that no mention at all was made of assisting people who are trying to get into post-secondary education? We have two types of young people. One type goes into post-secondary education and comes out with a horrendous debt, which usually drives them out of the country for employment. The second are those who, when they look at the cost of education, and because they come from poor families or areas away from the centre of education, decide they cannot afford to go anyway.

What has the government done in the Speech from the Throne to assist these people? I did not see anything.

Mr. Jim Karygiannis: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the member for a very important question. I believe that we do as we preach. I live in my riding. I work in my riding for the constituents there. As well, I encourage my children and wife to shop in the riding.

I have four daughters who are currently in university. I said to them a long time ago that when I was going through university I paid my way. I worked in the summertime and I paid my tuition in the fall. That might not be possible these days in that these days it is not easy to find work. However, I am proud to say that all my four daughters are going through university and they have laboured over the summer in order to find employment and pay their way. It is not easy and some children are not as fortunate. This is why we have the Canada student loans and why those loans are there when sometimes the provincial loans are failing.

Maybe we should revisit the area and the era in which we were providing a bit of a grant. There is room for discussion. I want to thank the hon. member for bringing this to the floor. It will be something that I will be speaking with my colleagues about to make sure that we aggressively go after it.

Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I would like to advise you that I will be splitting my time with my colleague, the hon. member for Calgary--Nose Hill.

I would like to address my remarks in reply to the Speech from the Throne and couch them by illustrating my points with two average citizens of Canada.

In particular, the Speech from the Throne illustrated that the government and that speech in particular are out of touch with ordinary Canadians who are asked to shoulder the burdens of Canada to a greater and greater extent. They are finding that their standard of living is going down. It used to be on a parallel with that of the United States and it has now dropped a considerable degree below that.

Yesterday was the International Day of Older Persons. I am wondering how many senior citizens actually celebrated that day. I cannot not help but think of a fellow named Joe Shephard. Last spring he wrote a letter to every MP. I want to quote the contents of that letter today. This is what he said last April:

I am a senior Canadian citizen, decreed by you to live on $13,000 a year, trying to keep myself and my rural home warm, fed, repaired and healthy and my vehicle together to access needs.

In 2000, ends were not meeting.... Which included my '87 vehicle. So, I went to work for 6 months in a boatyard, earned $7,400, less tax, CPP and EI for which I had too few hours to qualify.

This was followed by a further tax demand for $1,400 and the application of my HST refunds as a tax payment.

Revenue Canada reduced my income ($13,000) by $3,600 per year, leaving $800 a month to pay for living, mortgage, insurance, property taxes, repairs, car insurance, gas, power and phone, water, oil, wood, clothing and food.

No computer, no e-mail, no fax, no phone and the typewriter ribbon has died.

I am an expert and I know it can't be done.

Solution please.

There was no solution for Mr. Shephard in the throne speech. Joe will have to struggle just to make ends meet. There was no such action because this throne speech is out of touch with the everyday lives of Canadians.

On Tuesday of this week, following the Speech from the Throne on Monday, a call came in to my office from a senior citizen in Edmonton, Ernie Psikla. I dare say that some of my colleagues from Edmonton know this gentleman. Ernie called to say that he can no longer afford the costs of the drugs that help his wife. At $12 per pill he finds it a struggle, especially when his health plan does not cover the cost of new and improved medicine. Ernie wonders if people like him, living on a fixed income, could not find some relief through a fairer tax deduction for the costs of medication. Ernie also mentioned that he will be moving soon, leaving the apartment he has lived in for the past 12 years, because he can no longer afford the rent, which has increased by 50%.

He mentioned that he was disappointed with the Speech from the Throne because the government was not recognizing where the real difficulties lie for people like himself and his wife. He was not complaining and he was not looking for a handout. Ernie is not even giving up. I was surprised at that. He was simply asking that the government recognize the increasing difficulty people like he and his wife are facing. Did it? No.

Is it right that people like Joe and Ernie and his wife are asked to shoulder the burden of the government's overspending? Is it right that the Prime Minister and his government say nothing about reducing the tax burden for these families? How do these citizens feel when the only concrete solution to come from the government on any problem, like improving the health care system, is to raise taxes?

I cannot not help but refer to that one line in the Speech from the Throne which went something like this: We will have a fairer relationship between the tax burden and the GDP. That is all very well, but it does not help these people at all, because what it means is that if the GDP goes up so does the tax rate. There will always be a relationship like that. These people are on a fixed income and that is a real problem.

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Exactly where does the Liberal government think Canadians are going to get the money to pay? Why is it acceptable to the Liberal government that every year the standard of living falls for people like Joe and Ernie?

However, Joe and Ernie are not without hope. There is hope when they hear what the official opposition is saying. When the leader of the official opposition said yesterday that necessary health care should be available for every citizen regardless of ability to pay, that there should be no delays for critical treatment and that Canadians should not be saddled with enormous bills for catastrophic health problems, Canadians were relieved to hear that.

When I stood in the House yesterday and said that the Canadian Alliance is committed to achieving and sustaining a good standard of living for all seniors in Canada, that not one Canadian senior in this country should be in distress because of a lack of services or support, Canadian seniors like Joe and Ernie were glad to hear that.

We know, as they do, that the only way to achieve and sustain a good standard of living in Canada is to ensure an economy where the pillars are strong and where the workers, small businesses and homegrown industries are given every advantage to get ahead. There are two elements that have to take place: one, there has to be a reduction in taxes and, two, there has to be a reduction and simplifying of regulations.

As the hon. Leader of the Opposition said in the House yesterday, as late as the 1960s, 42 years ago, Canada's standard of living was on a par with that of the United States. Today it is more than one-third lower and falling.

The Speech from the Throne includes no concrete plan to reverse what is happening in the country in that regard. The Speech from the Throne reveals only that we are being led by a government that stubbornly refuses to see what is happening to Canadians and continues to insist that the path of 1993 is good enough for 2002, when clearly the lives of Canadians are not improving. So crippled is the government by its size, its lack of solutions and its internal infighting that it fails to heed cries from the opposition to concentrate on an agenda that will build strength in this economy from the bottom up, in our families, our small businesses or homegrown industries. Members opposite do not seem to hear any of that because they are out of touch with ordinary Canadians.

I cannot help but refer to the hon. member a moment ago mentioning going to the corner store and having to get into a car. That sounded like such a terrible thing to do, but I would like to ask the hon. member how he would get to his corner store if it were 30 miles away. We have a gentleman sitting in the House, the hon. member for Athabasca, and I will ask him where his nearest corner store is. I ask the hon. member: surely there is a difference between going a block or going 30 miles. Yet he made no such distinction.

That is the difficulty with the Speech from the Throne. It zeros in on things that do not relate to the ordinary Canadian. That is where the difficulty lies. There is a better way to protect the environment without sacrificing the economy. It really touched me and grabbed me in place that I do not like, that is, right down in my emotions. It had to do with the Prime Minister announcing in South Africa that he was going to ratify the Kyoto accord. There was no consultation with industry, no consultation with provinces and no indication of what the implementation of a plan like that might cost, not even how such an implementation would actually be done.

There he was, standing as the leader of this country, which he is, and saying on his own behalf, for a country that is supposed to be a democracy, that he will cause this to take place. I am sure there are many members opposite who sit in the backbenches who wish that the Prime Minister did not have quite as much power as that.

Canadians are no longer willing to accept that kind of tyrannical behaviour. The time has come for us to recognize that we are a democracy and that our Prime Minister and all of the members of Parliament are accountable in the first instance to the people of Canada and not to the Prime Minister. It is time that we curtailed the power of that office.

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Mr. Larry Bagnell (Yukon, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I enjoyed listening to the very thoughtful speech of my colleague and was delighted that he was sensitive to older people in his constituency. He made a good point that I think we basically agree on, in that Canada's productivity level is lower than the United States. Where we disagree, though, is that there was no action by the government. I want to update him in case he is not aware.

This year the government has produced two major initiatives, one at HRDC and one at Industry Canada: the skills agenda at HRDC and the innovation agenda. I think there have been 34 conferences across the country. A rural conference has been held on this and there will be a national conference on innovation. As the member knows, innovation is how we will close that productivity gap.

I know my constituents in Yukon are so aware of this that they are actually now doing a strategy for Yukon, as well as a national strategy. I am sure the member would agree that this important and very detailed step to increasing productivity is what we are both after. Is he aware of this having occurred in his constituency? If so, has his constituents had enough time for input? If he is not aware of this, would he like us to get him the documents?

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Mr. Werner Schmidt: Mr. Speaker, not only am I aware but I am also very aware that not very much innovation has ever taken place as a result of a conference or at the conference.

Words are many. Studies are many. The time has come to give to the people the tools so that they can in fact innovate. One of those tools is to reduce taxes, to reduce government interference through regulation and let that happen. Innovations will happen if we allow people the initiative and create the environment where they can do these kinds of things. To have a bunch of conferences across Canada is not the answer.

I must make a comment with regard to seniors. These are people who are on a fixed income. These are not the people who are at the innovative strategies. These are not the people who are starting businesses. These are the people who have contributed to this country, who built this country and who are being intruded upon. Their standard of living has dropped.

I would like to refer the member to just one thing. The reference to a $12 pill that Ernie's wife has to take is a major issue. The government today needs to carefully re-examine the relationship between the cost of generic drugs, for example, and patented drugs. There was a time when the average price of a generic drug was about 50% of the patented drugs. That is no longer the case. The price has risen dramatically. No longer is the price advantage nearly as great in purchasing generic drugs as it was in years gone by.

There is nothing in the throne speech at all in getting greater equity and greater fairness in the position that the seniors find themselves in. That was the point I was trying to make.

Mr. David Chatters (Athabasca, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I also heard no reference in the throne speech about helping those on fixed incomes, particularly when the effects of ratifying and implementing Kyoto will see energy costs go through the roof. How will these people on fixed incomes be able to cope with that?

I would ask the member for Kelowna how these individuals, who he spoke to or who spoke to him and expressed their concerns, feel about the commitment in the throne speech to double the foreign aid to Africa without any commitment from those African countries for democratic reform so that those Canadian tax dollars do not end up in the hidden bank accounts of people like Robert Mugabe. How do the seniors who are facing this hardship feel about those things?

Mr. Werner Schmidt: Mr. Speaker, I can answer that question very directly because I have had more calls about that particular concern than I have had about the other. These people, who are on fixed incomes, have asked me how they would be able to make ends meet if their utilities or electricity increased by 25% and the gas prices by maybe 30% to 50%.

This year, for example, I think they have had a 1.2% increase in their old age security in the first quarter and yet they are facing this kind of an increase. They asks themselves “What is the government trying to do? Does it not care about us as seniors? We built this country. We thought we had a democracy. Are they asking us? No, not at all. They are making it increasingly difficult for us to survive”.

The Kyoto accord seems to be going ahead without any indication whatsoever of what the costs will be. All we know is that it will increase costs. It will reduce the number of people who are employed. It will cost jobs. How in the world will these people make ends meet? They are concerned but they are not without hope. They are looking at people, like the official opposition, to do something. They want us to hold government members to account and to make sure that does not continue to be the case.

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the Liberal's throne speech has kind of a wistful title, “The Canada We Want”. That is because Monday's throne speech was an admission that the Liberals have failed to deliver. They have failed to deliver a modern health care system. They have failed to deliver progress in getting Canada's children off welfare. In fact StatsCan says that child poverty actually has climbed under the Liberals.

They have failed any reasonable level of life chances for aboriginals. They have failed to deliver any sort of plan to tackle the challenge of climate change. They have failed to support those things that would allow Canada to be a world leader in innovation and learning. They have failed to deliver worldclass cities and healthy communities.

They have failed in bringing government and citizens together in partnership. There is a bigger divide between Canadians and their government than ever before. They have failed to secure Canada's place in North America and the world as a mature country.

We have this terrible indictment of failure, and that is out of the Liberals' own mouth in Monday's throne speech, because this list is in the government's own words from its throne speech, and the Liberals have said that they want these things for Canada because of their own failure to deliver the goods in these critical areas. There is absolutely no excuse for their failure. They have had nine years of absolute power.

They have spent an average of $115 billion each and every one of those nine years. That is over $1 trillion. In fact since the last election the Liberals have raised their spending by 10% a year. How many Canadians would love to have 10% more to work with every year? Well the government has and yet it is still saying that it wants these important things for Canada.

Despite the Liberals' complete power to do anything they want, despite over $1 trillion to spend any way they wanted and despite more and more money each year, the Liberals have not had either the will or the savvy to deliver on their own publicly stated priorities.

After nine years, after $1 trillion, after the power to do whatever they want, after all of that and in spite of all the wealth of resources and opportunities, these things are still merely on the government's wish list.

Liberals call it “The Canada We Want”. They should also call it the opportunity we have squandered. Monday's throne speech was a shocking and sad admission of Liberal failure and hypocrisy. Liberals say that they want health care, generous provisions for our children, aboriginals with a bright future, to fix climate change, to have Canada renowned for innovation and learning, worldclass cities and healthy communities, close relations between government and citizens, and respect for Canada on the world stage, but Liberal hot air on these important topics is very likely the real and hidden cause of global warming.

If these were things the Liberals truly wanted they would not be on some Liberal nice-to-have list after nine long years of unchecked Liberal power. This is a list of what the Prime Minister wishes could be part of his legacy. Instead, the throne speech was a sad outline of a Liberal legacy of lameness, a Liberal legacy of failure, a legacy of failing Canada and failing Canadians.

Liberal failure is evident in every single department of government. I have responsibility as critic for immigration issues. I literally could speak all day on the failures of the Liberals in the important area of immigration. Time permits me to place only one or two such failures on the record today but they are a telling indication of the incompetence and weakness of the Liberal government in looking after our country's interests.

I have learned through an access to information request that as of 2001 over 6,000 foreign criminals without standing removal orders still remain at large in Canada. Out of all criminals ordered removed, 34% of them still remain in Canada.

(1740)

I have also found out that of almost 300,000 refugee claimants ordered removed since 1985, as of 2001 only about 20,000 have actually been confirmed and removed. Only 11% of people found to have not been legitimate refugees and ordered removed can be confirmed as having left. Essentially what we have is a 90% failure rate for these removals. That is what these Liberals have done in administering important areas of our immigration system.

In the throne speech the Liberals say that they want to break down the barriers to the recognition of foreign credentials, to fast track skilled workers with jobs waiting for them in Canada, to attract more talented foreign students, to reduce settlement barriers and to help children of immigrants learn English and French.

All this is just wishful thinking with these Liberals. Again, they have had nine long years to get serious about the needs of people coming to our shores from around the world to build a new life and to help build the Canada of the future.

The truth is that the Liberals have known ever since they took over the reigns of government that immigrants to Canada urgently needed the government to take action on these issues. They have had nine years to take serious action, any action, on foreign credentials, speeding up the process when jobs were waiting, attracting the brightest and best international students and helping children learn our languages. However, these important immigrant needs, after all this Liberal opportunity, still languish on the Liberal wish list.

Canadians have a turn of phrase to express our skepticism and disrespect when people with an uninspiring track record tells us what they plan to do. We just say “promises, promises”.

That pretty much sums up the throne speech from this bunch of talk big but do nothing, do little Liberals who govern Canada. It is just promises, promises. Their track record is one of failure on these issues. Where it counts, they just do not deliver for Canada.

Canadians deserve better. Immigrants coming to Canada deserve better. The Canadian Alliance is determined to provide the alternative that Canada wants and that Canada deserves.

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Mr. James Moore (Port Moody—Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, my colleague from Calgary--Nose Hill is a distinguished parliamentarian who has served here since 1993 and has spent a lot of time touring across Canada. Most recently she spent a great deal of time campaigning in a very substance based leadership campaign of the Canadian Alliance. A good part of her campaign was about the democratic deficits that we see in this country, an idea that was apparently stolen by the former finance minister in rhetoric only.

I wonder if she could address some of the things that she has seen in the House and how the Liberals have failed to address the real democratic deficit. They talk about it in campaigns but they do not act on it. They have a full 177 seats in the House and can do anything they want but for the past decade they have failed to address that issue. I wonder if the member could enlighten them on how they might do that.

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: Mr. Speaker, my colleague must have known that was my other speech I wish I could have given.

The fact of the matter is that the biggest indication of the democratic deficit in our country is the scandals and the exposure of corruption and cronyism and pork-barrelling that we have seen month after month for the last several years from the Liberal government. The fact is that the government does not have the proper accountability and transparency measures that would hold the Liberals to the standard that Canadians would want from them. What happens? Canadians give up. They feel the government does not speak for them, that it is not in tune with their wishes and their values, and so they disconnect. That is a real problem. We all see this as parliamentarians. The Liberals see it. We see it. Everyone sees it.

There are some very clear measures that we in the Canadian Alliance have been proposing since we came to this place. They would address the democratic deficit. They would reconnect what happens in this place with what Canadians want and what serves their interests truly.

They are things as simple as an ethics counsellor who could investigate these terrible instances of corruption and cronyism and report back to us as a parliament. Instead we have an ethics counsellor who has been completely hired by and controlled by the very government that needs to be held to account for that individual. Nobody in the country thinks that makes sense. In fact, the Liberals do not think it makes sense either because in their 1993 red book they promised there would be an ethics counsellor who would be completely independent and would report directly to parliament.

We gave the Liberals a chance to put that red book promise into effect. We brought forward a motion in the House last year saying that this House would put into place an ethics counsellor who would report to us as parliamentarians and not be controlled by the government. What happened was the Liberals stood on their feet and voted the motion down. It is no wonder Canadians say, “We don't have a government we can trust. We don't have a government that we believe is accountable”. The Liberals will not do anything to address it. That is why we have to have an alternative to replace them that can implement the measures we have been talking about for nine years in this place to really move us back into a true democracy.

(1750)

Mr. Loyola Hearn (St. John's West, PC): Mr. Speaker, in light of the comments the member for Calgary--Nose Hill just made and from her tone, is she trying to tell us that perhaps we should not believe that the government is going to deliver the money for the poor that it promised, the money for health care that it promised, when the government itself thinks these issues are so important that it has promised them three times in a row?

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: Mr. Speaker, let us examine the Liberals' track record. We know people by what they have done, where they have been, what they have said, what they have delivered. What the Liberal government did is it cut spending on health care. It hacked it so deeply that we have problems which started back in 1995 when it slashed its support for health care, and it is coming home to roost today. What did the Liberals do? They got up on the throne speech and said, “We are going to deliver a health care system that meets the needs of the 21st century”.

They are the same guys who gave a mortal blow to our health care system. Are Canadians really going to trust them to deliver this wonderful vision of a health care system of the future? I do not think so. It is under the Liberal watch that Statistics Canada has said that child poverty has actually worsened. It is worse under the Liberals.

No matter what they promise, this is what they have given us as Canadians. A Canadian who is watching and evaluating the trustworthiness of the Liberals' promises will have to look at their track record.

Mr. Wayne Easter (Malpeque, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the Secretary of State for Rural Development.

First, I cannot resist talking a bit about the right wing rant we just heard from the member for Calgary--Nose Hill when she talked about nine long years.

The throne speech is a real Liberal throne speech based on a Liberal agenda. We are not catering to the right wing ideas of the party opposite, which has been done too much in the past. Today as we set the stage for the throne speech, Canadians have fiscal sovereignty and they are united. We are united as a country and we are a confident people. We can move forward with the kind of economic and social agenda that we can be proud of as Liberals and which meets Liberal values.

I welcome the throne speech. It lays out an important direction. It is a road map for the future and where the government will go in the next several years.

This is a real Liberal throne speech and I am proud to take part in the debate on it. In the throne speech there are some of the issues we campaigned on as far back as 1993 and I will admit that. When we came to power we ended up facing the fiscal deficit that was left as a result of the Mulroney years. We had to get the country's finances in order and we did. We made some tough decisions. Some of them have been mentioned that we made in 1995. We made the necessary cuts and today the foundation is under us to enable us to move forward.

The throne speech breaks the catering to some of the right wing values of the past and moves us forward. It not only builds on a strong economic base but it also builds on a social policy for better health care. It helps families and children. It improves the situation in agriculture. It deals with climate change. It tries to develop a better opportunity for others around the world. It is based on Liberal values.

I was very pleased that the Prime Minister gave caucus members the opportunity to participate and put forward their ideas in the development of the throne speech. I am pleased that a good many of our ideas in the discussions we had as a party are in the throne speech.

I want to quote from the letter I gave to the Prime Minister. I do so because we have to be ever vigilant of our natural resource industries including fisheries, as members opposite yell about from time to time.

Sometimes the difficulty with the heady excitement surrounding new technologies is that we lose sight of the fact that the key enduring strength in the Canadian economy lies in our natural resources: agriculture, fisheries, forestry and mining and the value added that we get from those resources. Those natural resource industries have been the foundation of the country from the beginning and they will remain the foundation. We have to make sure those natural resource industries are well funded in the future. We will do that through the budgetary measures.

Most of those areas were mentioned in the throne speech. The throne speech addresses several of these points and we must be vigilant to ensure that we spend the necessary moneys in the future.

Since my background is in agriculture, I want to talk about it. The initiative outlined in the agricultural policy framework stated as its purpose that the government is committed to “moving agriculture beyond crisis management to greater profitability and prosperity in the 21st century”. This marks a new activist involvement of the federal government in agriculture.

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This past June the announcement of the framework was accompanied by a new infusion of funds from the federal government in the amount of $5.2 billion. With provincial cooperation this funding will increase to $8.18 billion for agriculture. This initiative has the support of the farming community and is one which must be built upon further.

The benefits of this initiative depend not only on domestic efforts, but also on the situation our farmers face at the international level. I do not have time to go through the figures and the subsidization levels in the United States and Europe, but they are outrageous. We have to stand by our farmers in the interim.

The United States farm bill and the renewed United States trade actions targeting the Canadian Wheat Board demonstrate that the efforts of the federal government to meet the commitments under the agricultural policy framework will include action in response to the United States agricultural policies and unwarranted trade challenges.

The U.S. farm bill will put about $190 billion into their agricultural industry over the next 10 years. However this new level of protectionism will continue to drive commodity prices down in this country and around the world and will have a direct negative impact on Canadian farmers. To respond to these unfair trading practices and subsidies, the government must be committed to a direct response as outlined in the throne speech, noting that the government will work “bilaterally and multilaterally to resolve trade disputes”.

A more activist government agenda will be one securing the critical infrastructure of our agricultural sector. There must be a strong and aggressive challenge to the United States efforts at undermining the Canadian Wheat Board. We must stand up to the Canadian Alliance as well, which is also trying to undermine the Canadian Wheat Board. The most recent challenge is the 10th effort by the United States. All previous attempts to challenge the board have been unsuccessful.

The federal government must issue a strong statement of support for the supply managed commodity sector, one of the unique Canadian success stories in terms of agricultural management and production benefiting farmers. It must ensure that at the World Trade Organization and other trade negotiations this important institution is not compromised.

As a final point, with respect to resolving trade issues, the rules must be the same across the board. Specifically with respect to the issue of potato wart and mop top virus, the United States has been attempting to negotiate a more stringent quarantine program for Prince Edward Island farmers than the Americans are willing to accept for theirs. That is unacceptable and we must have similar program restrictions for both countries.

I emphasize that in terms of health care the throne speech is moving in the right direction. In terms of environmental protection and climate change, we are also moving in the right direction.

Regional development is one of the areas the Alliance Party always attacks, especially in Atlantic Canada. I want to talk for a moment about what regional development has done for Atlantic Canada in terms of putting it at the forefront in moving forward.

Let us look at business costs. The most comprehensive business cost environment among the G-7 countries is in fact Atlantic Canada. In Atlantic Canada the cost of living is 25% to 65% lower than other regions. Building permits and environmental assessments are done much faster, in a matter of weeks or months. Land costs are in the lowest 5% of locations around North America. We have competitive reliable energy rates. We have a workforce of 1.2 million people who are well educated. We have a strong infrastructure in terms of 16 seaports and 15 commercial airports.

Canada has the second highest rates of broadband penetration in the OECD. We have over 40 colleges and universities. We have a dependable and very strong labour force. The Alliance should listen to this one on taxation. Atlantic Canada has the second lowest average corporate taxes in the G-7.

(1800)

As well, property taxes are 30% lower and it is one of North America's leading e-learning clusters. We have more than 1,400 training companies. Atlantic Canada is the place to do business. We have been able to do it and maintain our social agenda and it is in part thanks to our regional development agencies like ACOA.

Mr. John Cummins (Delta—South Richmond, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, it was delightful to listen to my friend from Malpeque and his comments about the great throne speech, but the member opposite has been the chairman of the House of Commons fisheries committee and not once in the throne speech was the word fishery mentioned.

I am absolutely amazed and dumbfounded that the chairman of the fisheries committee would get up and distribute accolades to the government for this throne speech when it never mentioned a critical area like fishery. He knows as well as I do the great problems that the fishing industry is having. He knows as well as I do about the shortage of money for the Coast Guard and the lack of resources directed toward it. There was not a word on it.

In fact, he was not even going to mention the word fishery until I gave him the opportunity with some well-placed comments, so I would like to give the member just a couple of minutes to correct some of his oversights.

Mr. Wayne Easter: Mr. Speaker, if we just go back to the speech of the member for Calgary—Nose Hill we will see how that member of the Canadian Alliance, of which the member for Delta—South Richmond is a part, although I am sure he must hate to admit it sometimes, took every section of the speech we mentioned and talked about it as if we have not done enough when we are moving forward in these areas.

In terms of fisheries, the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans is doing very good work. Yes, work has to be done. We have tabled some reports from the fisheries committee too. We did not expect this to be in the throne speech. Where we expect to see the efforts in the fishery is in the forthcoming budget, so as a past chair of the fisheries committee, along with my colleague opposite, we are certainly serving notice to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans right now that we expect great strides forward to come in the next budget.

(1805)

Mr. Svend Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for Malpeque, the outgoing chair of the fisheries committee, for his comments. I certainly associate myself with a concern that was raised about the absence of any reference to fisheries in the Speech from the Throne and will put two very specific questions to the hon. member, particularly in his capacity as the outgoing chair of the fisheries committee.

First, as a British Columbian member of Parliament, I want to say to the member that we in British Columbia are deeply concerned about the massive cuts to the budget of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans on the west coast. Salmon enhancement programs and other programs are being absolutely slashed while the budget of the headquarters here in Ottawa is just bloated. Is the member prepared to take up that issue seriously?

The second issue is one that was raised by the member for Delta—South Richmond, by me and by a number of other British Columbians, and that is the very serious concern about the situation following the tragic loss of five lives on the Cap Rouge II, and particularly the incoherent response of the minister of fisheries on the issue, the really shameful attempt--

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): The hon. member for Malpeque.

Mr. Wayne Easter: Mr. Speaker, in terms of the funding, the fisheries committee has been doing pretty strenuous work in terms of looking at the Fraser River and the aquaculture. Those two reports are in draft form and no doubt will come forward, and the minister and the government will have time in which to respond.

Previously today, the minister answered the question related to the divers and I think we will have to go to the record to see that.

I want to point out that the throne speech lays out basically the general road map. It does not get into the specifics. That is basically what the throne speech did. As I said earlier, we do have a good, strong fiscal foundation and we do have the ability to move forward. It is as a result of the Liberal values that we are now moving forward with. We will have a better economic and social agenda and a stronger country as a result of what the government, under Prime Minister Jean Chrétien, is doing.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): The hon. member for Malpeque knows full well that he cannot refer to a member by name.

Resuming debate, the hon. secretary of state for rural development and FedNor. I would like to inform the member that he has five minutes before I call in the members for a recorded division.

Hon. Andy Mitchell (Secretary of State (Rural Development) (Federal Economic Development Initiative for Northern Ontario), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I will have to talk quickly.

I appreciate the opportunity to speak to the throne speech. Despite all of the great things in the throne speech, and many of my colleagues have talked about them, I want to reserve my comments for the issue of urban and rural Canada.

One of the basic things that the throne speech recognizes, indeed, that the government recognizes and which the opposition has not even begun to think about, is that the success of this nation, the success of Canada, the success of our people, is based on the understanding that we need both a strong urban and a strong rural Canada, that if we are to be successful both of our component parts need to be strong. If we look at the reasons why and look at the contributions that rural Canada makes to this nation in employment, in what it adds to our trade surplus and in the amount of the GDP, they are all significant. The reality is that if we are to be successful in urban Canada, if we are to be successful in rural Canada, both parts need to be strong.

One of the things I was pleased to see in the Speech from the Throne was that a number of issues that involve rural Canadians were talked about directly. Those individual and particular challenges that we as rural Canadians face, in terms of geography, population density and the cyclical nature of our economy, are dealt with in the Speech from the Throne.

The member for Malpeque talked about some of them. For instance, in terms of the agricultural policy framework and related measures, there was that announcement the Prime Minister made in June, the $5.2 billion, which was to be implemented and put forward for the benefit of rural Canadians and indeed for the benefit of all Canadians.

Yes, the throne speech talked about something very critical for our rural members, and that is our regional development agencies, but it talked about more than just the regional development agencies. It talked about the need to focus programming for the knowledge-based economy, to make sure that the innovations we are talking about as a society are also applicable to rural Canadians and rural businesses so that rural citizens have an opportunity to participate in a knowledge-based economy.

The throne speech talked about some of the issues of globalization. It talked about some of the trade issues. The hon. member for Malpeque talked about this as well. It said that the government has in the past dealt with and will continue in the future to deal with those trade-distorting policies that are having a harmful impact on our agricultural industry. It talked about our softwood lumber industry and the need for us to deal with the Americans on this issue. That commitment is clearly in the Speech from the Throne. That is important for rural Canadians and rural Canadian communities that depend on agriculture and that depend on forestry.

It talked about a national infrastructure program, a ten-year national infrastructure program. This is critical for rural Canadians. We need to have the basic infrastructure built into our communities. We need to have the water, the sewers and the roads, the types of networks within our rural communities that would allow us to fully participate in the economy of Canada.

I was pleased to see that long-term commitment made in the Speech from the Throne, because I travel through rural Canada and I have an opportunity to talk to municipal leaders about their relationship with government, their need for government to provide them with the tools in order to pursue their development activities in a way that makes sense for their local communities. They talk about the need for infrastructure, whether that be traditional infrastructure or telecommunications infrastructure.

I was so pleased, and I know that members were because several of them were with me, when we made the announcement of BRAN, which will help us ensure that all rural Canadians have an opportunity to access high-speed broadband Internet so that those communities can have access to important things such as health care, education and lifelong learning in a competitive business environment.

I was pleased with the Speech from the Throne, and I know my colleagues were as well, when we saw the commitment to those important projects that we want to see take place in rural Canada. The Voisey's Bay project that will take place in Newfoundland and Labrador is a project that is going to create real economic activity in rural Canada and real jobs for rural Canadians and improve the standard of living and the quality of life for Canadians in rural Canada.

Our commitment to work in northern Canada to ensure that those gas pipelines have an opportunity to be developed and to provide economic opportunities for those north of 60 is a commitment that was in the Speech from the Throne and is one that rural Canadians applaud fully as they see that taking place.

(1810)

Housing is a critical issue in rural Canada, as it is in urban Canada. Concerns with housing may manifest themselves differently in a rural context compared to an urban context. They oftentimes do. I know that the Alliance Party in trying to come to grips with this, which is not happening because they do not come to grips with this or any other policy, quite frankly, but in fact we see a policy in place to allow communities to deal with housing issues.

In summary, the Speech from the Throne is great for all Canadians and it is particularly good for those Canadians who live in rural Canada.

[Translation]

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): It being 6.15 p.m., it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every question necessary to dispose of the amendment to the amendment now before the House.

[English]

The question is on the subamendment. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the subamendment?

Some hon. members: Agreed.

Some hon. members: No.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): All those in favour of the subamendment will please say yea.

Some hon. members: Yea.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): All those opposed will please say nay.

Some hon. members: Nay.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): Call in the members.

* * *

(1840)

[Translation]

(The House divided on the amendment to the amendment which was negatived on the following division:)

(Division No. 1)

YEAS

Members

Ablonczy
Anderson (Cypress Hills—Grasslands)
Asselin
Bachand (Saint-Jean)
Bailey
Barnes (Gander—Grand Falls)
Benoit
Bergeron
Bigras
Borotsik
Bourgeois
Brien
Brison
Burton
Cadman
Cardin
Casson
Chatters
Clark
Crête
Cummins
Dalphond-Guiral
Desrochers
Doyle
Dubé
Duceppe
Elley
Epp
Fitzpatrick
Forseth
Gagnon (Québec)
Gallant
Gauthier
Goldring
Gouk
Grewal
Grey
Guay
Guimond
Hanger
Harper
Hearn
Hill (Prince George--Peace River)
Hill (Macleod)
Hilstrom
Hinton
Jaffer
Johnston
Kenney (Calgary Southeast)
Laframboise
Lalonde
Lanctôt
Loubier
Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands)
Lunney (Nanaimo—Alberni)
MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough)
Marceau
Mark
Martin (Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca)
Mayfield
McNally
Ménard
Meredith
Merrifield
Mills (Red Deer)
Moore
Pallister
Paquette
Penson
Perron
Picard (Drummond)
Plamondon
Rajotte
Reid (Lanark—Carleton)
Ritz
Rocheleau
Roy
Sauvageau
Schmidt
Skelton
Solberg
Sorenson
Spencer
Stinson
Strahl
Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest)
Thompson (Wild Rose)
Toews
Tremblay
Vellacott
White (North Vancouver)
White (Langley--Abbotsford)
Williams
Yelich

Total: -- 94

NAYS

Members

Adams
Alcock
Anderson (Victoria)
Assad
Assadourian
Augustine
Bagnell
Bakopanos
Barnes (London West)
Beaumier
Bélanger
Bellemare
Bennett
Bertrand
Bevilacqua
Binet
Blaikie
Blondin-Andrew
Bonin
Bonwick
Boudria
Brown
Bryden
Bulte
Byrne
Caccia
Calder
Caplan
Carignan
Carroll
Castonguay
Catterall
Cauchon
Chamberlain
Charbonneau
Chrétien
Coderre
Collenette
Comuzzi
Copps
Cotler
Cullen
Cuzner
Davies
DeVillers
Dion
Dromisky
Drouin
Duplain
Easter
Efford
Eggleton
Eyking
Farrah
Finlay
Folco
Frulla
Fry
Godfrey
Godin
Goodale
Graham
Grose
Guarnieri
Harb
Harvard
Harvey
Hubbard
Jackson
Jennings
Jordan
Karetak-Lindell
Karygiannis
Keyes
Kilgour (Edmonton Southeast)
Knutson
Laliberte
Lastewka
LeBlanc
Leung
Lill
Lincoln
Longfield
MacAulay
Macklin
Mahoney
Malhi
Maloney
Manley
Marcil
Marleau
Martin (LaSalle--Émard)
Masse
Matthews
McCallum
McCormick
McGuire
McKay (Scarborough East)
McLellan
McTeague
Mills (Toronto--Danforth)
Minna
Mitchell
Murphy
Myers
Nault
Neville
O'Brien (London--Fanshawe)
O'Reilly
Owen
Pacetti
Pagtakhan
Paradis
Patry
Peric
Peschisolido
Peterson
Pickard (Chatham--Kent Essex)
Pillitteri
Pratt
Price
Proctor
Proulx
Provenzano
Redman
Reed (Halton)
Regan
Robillard
Rock
Saada
Savoy
Scherrer
Scott
Serré
Sgro
Shepherd
Simard
Speller
St-Jacques
St-Julien
St. Denis
Szabo
Telegdi
Thibault (West Nova)
Thibeault (Saint-Lambert)
Tirabassi
Tonks
Ur
Valeri
Vanclief
Volpe
Wasylycia-Leis
Wilfert
Wood

Total: -- 154

PAIRED

Nil

The Speaker: I declare the amendment to the amendment lost.

Government Orders

[Government Orders]

* * *

[English]

Iraq

The House resumed from October 1 consideration of the motion.

Hon. Gar Knutson (Secretary of State (Central and Eastern Europe and Middle East), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is my honour to participate in this debate this evening. The House has a serious task before it.

As we debate what Canada's policy toward Iraq ought to be under the current circumstances it is essential to look back at Iraq's recent past. It is essential to speak the truth about the nature of the regime in Iraq and unfortunately the truth about the regime in Iraq is quite awful. It is an awful fact of life for 25 million Iraqis. It is a fact of life for hundreds of thousands more who have fled that country often leaving behind loved ones to face an uncertain future. It is also a fact of life for Iraq's neighbours, two of whom have been invaded in the past 20 years and for the broader region in which Iraq is situated.

The police state was born in Iraq in 1968 when Saddam Hussein and various collaborators seized power in Baghdad. With his final triumph over his junta rivals in 1978 Saddam consolidated not only his grip on power but the rein of terror he had launched a decade earlier. From that point on for almost a quarter of a century the regime in Iraq has pursued essentially two policies: the ruthless repression of its own people and military aggression against its neighbours with the aims of asserting regional dominance and acquiring territory. The result of these policies has been an unmitigated tragedy for the Iraqis and for Iraq's neighbours.

Let us first look at the regime's main domestic priority which is the preservation of its power at any cost. The government of Saddam Hussein has sought to retain its control over Iraq through the use of force, coercion and the brutal suppression of all potential sources of opposition. The basic rights of a number of ethnic and religious communities have been systematically violated. Political dissent is simply not tolerated in any form.

The forms that this oppression take have been documented in detail by the United Nations and by the international human rights organizations. Virtually the entire population of Iraq lives in fear of its government for the horrifying reason that the regime of Saddam Hussein has found that arbitrary arrest, torture, mutilation and executions are brutally effective means of crushing dissent.

Whole religious and ethnic communities in Iraq: Kurds, Shiite, Marsh Arabs, Turkomans, Assyrians and others have been targeted for vicious treatment aimed at destroying any potential they might have to organize even the mildest, most peaceful opposition to the government.

The details of how the Iraqi government runs its terrorist state are chilling. Iraq has the largest number of recorded instances of government organized disappearances with thousands of perceived opponents of the regime simply vanishing into Iraq's extensive prison system or without any trace at all. Over 16,000 cases of political disappearances remain unresolved including thousands who vanished following Iraq's suppression of the Shiite uprisings in 1991.

Iraq's security services carry out extra-judicial executions in the most brutal of fashions, killing parents in front of their children, beheading suspects on the street and using methods to terrify the survivors, as well as murdering the innocent. Interrogations are based on brutal, degrading and barbaric tortures. Punishments are routinely inflicted on entire families or communities in response to the perceived transgression of a single person. Most infamously, Saddam Hussein has used chemical weapons to exterminate whole towns; to kill thousands of men, women and children.

Despite the obstacles his government has thrown up to thwart every kind of external investigation, the international community has established without a doubt the true attitude of Saddam Hussein's regime to the Iraqi people. Faced with documentation of its brutality, the Iraqi government responds with lies.

As Max van der Stoel, the UN's special rapporteur on human rights in Iraq, explained to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights in 1999:

Nevertheless, I have continued to seek and receive information, and I have continued to report my findings. The Government has continued simply to deny everything or to offer limpid excuses even for its own laws which blatantly sanction arbitrary killing for anyone who insults the President or institutions of the regime, and laws which prescribe tortures for criminal acts like petty theft or evasion from military service. Increasingly, the Government of Iraq seems to find comfort in attacking my personal integrity—attacking the messenger since they are unable to refute the message. And all the while, there have continued widespread and systematic violations of human rights in Iraq.

(1845)

Perhaps the most succinct comment on the state of the rule of law in Iraq comes from Saddam himself, who has been quoted by a former senior nuclear weapons scientist as saying “Don't tell me about the law. The law is anything I write on a scrap of paper”.

Saddam Hussein has not been content to direct his violent will against only the helpless Iraqi people. He has also directed the states' resources, counted in human lives and oil wealth, against Iraq's neighbours. Scarcely two years after he consolidated his control of Iraq, Saddam Hussein unleashed an unprovoked war against Iran. His aim was both to bolster his claim to leadership of the Arab world and to grab vast chunks of Iranian territory. Within months his campaign had bogged down and the two countries settled into one of the longest wars of the 20th century.

At the end of the war, in 1988, at least 800,000 people were dead on both sides. Some of the Iranian side died as a result of chemical weapons attacks. Others were killed when the Iraqi government began to terrorize the civilian residents of Iranian cities with massive but dangerously inaccurate missiles.

Within two years of the end of that conflict, the regime in Iraq launched another military venture. In the summer of 1990, Saddam Hussein's forces overran Kuwait and annexed the sovereign state as a mere province of Iraq. The resulting showdown with the international community led to massive population movements and the deaths of thousands before Saddam Hussein was forced to withdraw his forces from Kuwait and abandon his territorial ambitions against the country, but not before he had attacked two more regional states, Saudi Arabia and Israel, again with missile attacks directed against civilian targets.

The disaffection provoked among Iraqis by Saddam's pointless war and defeat came close to resulting in the collapse of his regime but his government responded by putting down this insurrection with characteristic brutality.

Since the end of the gulf war we have seen further evidence of the Iraqi government's refusal to conform to even minimal standards of internationally acceptable behaviour. As Minister Graham and others have noted, the government of Saddam Hussein has deliberately resisted fulfilling its obligations to the United Nations Security Council, using every available subterfuge to conceal its efforts to build weapons of mass destruction. It has also allowed the humanitarian situation in Iraq to deteriorate and ignored the efforts of the international community to remedy the situation.

It has illegally exported billions of dollars worth of oil outside the oil for food program with the aim of directing these ill-gotten proceeds to banned military projects. Together with its appalling record on human rights, the Iraqi government's diplomatic and military behaviour demonstrates that it remains unrepentant and unreformed.

While Iraq remains recalcitrant, Canada's policy objectives remain clear and unchanged. We want to see Iraq comply with its obligations to the UN Security Council and the international community. Only in this manner can Iraq resume its place among the family of nations and can the Iraqi people look forward to a brighter future after so many years of suffering.