SUB-COMMITTEE ON THE INDUSTRY OF SPORT IN CANADA OF THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON CANADIAN HERITAGE

SOUS-COMITÉ DE L'INDUSTRIE SPORTIVE DU CANADA DU COMITÉ PERMANENT DU PATRIMOINE CANADIEN

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Monday, November 17, 1997

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[English]

The Chairman (Mr. Dennis J. Mills (Broadview—Greenwood, Lib.)): Why don't we begin. We'll introduce ourselves and maybe give a little bit of a backgrounder on why we're interested in this particular area.

Maybe we could express some of the additions to this discussion document, and any additional thoughts for a process, for witnesses, or for other topics that we should be sure to cover off when we send out invitations.

Why don't we begin with you, Denis.

Mr. Denis Coderre (Bourassa, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I come from Montreal. It's obviously a hockey city, but we also have a football team. We have a baseball team that is in jeopardy right now, and we're wondering if we're going to remain as Expos fans next year. So this task force will help us to maybe look particularly at our region in the province of Quebec, based on the national point of view of what the government approach should be to help those professional teams, as a first.

Second, we have to also discuss what our philosophy, our ideology, of sports itself should be. Should we make an effort to help the élites, or should we constitute ourselves as an élite country because, as you notice, we are participating a lot in the Olympic Games? We sometimes have the impression that the government's not doing enough to help those athletes, but also, based on sponsorship, to help the trainers and to help those kids to go there and to perform.

In saying that, we should also look at sports at the amateur level, and check for ourselves what the link should be amongst the government, the professionals and the amateurs.

In Quebec, we have what we call the Jeux du Québec, and we have a lot of athletes who participate through the school system. It's not the same as college football in the United States, for example, but we have some good teams in basketball, soccer, and sometimes in football too. But we have to look at what the governmental approach should be, and at whether or not we should do that as policy. We should even ask ourselves if we should participate at the sport level. How should we consider sports: as culture, as an industry, as both?

I was born in 1963, but I remember that goal by Paul Henderson in 1972. After that event, we noticed that hockey in particular had a good effect on national unity. So we have to ask ourselves if we should, as the national government, participate at that kind of level. Should we encourage all those national teams based on an approach of national unity?

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There are two things that we say we shouldn't discuss in Quebec, sports and religion, but since the Nordiques are now in Colorado, we're okay.

I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for managing this task force, because I think it's a must. We should discuss this. We're talking about millions and millions of dollars, and now we have the Americans taking our national sport of hockey.

We hear a lot of things being said about Canada being too small-market to have professional hockey teams. We saw what happened with the Oilers. We're not sure if they'll remain as a Canadian team beside maybe Toronto and Montreal, and there are also some problems in Vancouver, so we should look at it. As you know, Hamilton and Saskatoon wanted teams in the past, so do we as a government have the ability to help them? Should we help them?

I spoke to a lot of people about this committee, and a lot of them are enthusiastic. We have to make them understand, first, that this has nothing to do with the salaries. The first thing they're saying, especially when we talk about professional sports, is that with all those salaries, they don't need us, that there's no way the government should get involved in this. But when we discuss the industry itself, it has a great effect.

As an example, I give them the Montreal Canadiens' transfer from the Forum to the Molson Centre. It had a direct effect on commerce and enterprise just in that area, so imagine what happens when a city or a region loses its professional team. It has a direct effect on the industry itself. Not only in Quebec, but in other regions of the country, we have some industries for sporting goods that are directly affected if we lose or do not lose a professional team.

Those are the kinds of things I would like to discuss—the link between amateur and professional sports, the role of government and, specifically when we talk about the amateurs, the Olympics. The main goal of an amateur athlete is to attend those Olympic Games. We don't want to see another Greg Rusedski, who is now playing on behalf of Great Britain. He didn't feel at home here because he didn't have enough help. We had the same problem with

[Translation]

figure skating, in the case of the Duchesnays, who were brother and sister.

[English]

We have to think about what our role should be and how to help them. If we want to keep that popular approach but don't want to work at the excellency level, I think we'll have a problem. We should wear both hats at that level.

The Chairman: Just before we move on, with the whole area of recreational sport—especially in Quebec, with its linkage to skiing and tourism—one of the things we're going to try to link is sport and job creation, sport and its contribution to the economic engine of Canada. Do you see the possibility that maybe that whole industry around skiing, for example, is something that should be brought to the table?

Mr. Denis Coderre: Yes, because we have the region called les Laurentides. We have Mont Tremblant there, and we have Mont Ste-Anne in the Quebec City area. Obviously, we have our own champions, like Jean-Luc Brassard, Mélanie Turgeon, and even Myriam Bédard. When I talk about the Olympics, in a way, we should take all those sports and look at those based on that industry also.

Tourism is one that I forgot, but thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think it has a direct effect on that.

We also have to discuss sponsorships. We now have some problem with tobacco. There are two things: we encourage them or we try to find some other kind of sponsorship, but we have to take care of the athletes.

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The problem we have, no matter what the sport is, with the amateur sports, is when we're helping the kid it's because he gained a gold medal, but we have to realize those kids train hours and hours per week and sometimes it takes several years before they can attempt any medals. During that time they spend money. They are making sacrifices. As a government, I think we have a duty to help those kids to have that excellence, to make sure we'll be proud of them. By helping the kids we're helping the industry and we're helping ourselves.

The Chairman: Infrastructure.

George.

Mr. George Proud (Hillsborough, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank you for bringing together this task force to look at sport.

I come from Prince Edward Island. The only professional sport we have there is horse racing, and it's in serious trouble. We are probably a microcosm of what is happening on the larger scale. Three years ago we had a professional hockey team, an AHL team, the farm team of the Ottawa Senators. We didn't have the people to support it, and it left after two years. I think those are the situations you see the Canadian cities facing as far as the NHL is concerned.

Sport is a big part of the culture and the life of my province. We've sent many hockey players to the NHL. Hockey, baseball, football...of course basketball has caught fire there, the same as it has everywhere else.

What role government should play, I don't know, but I think there is a role for it. Certainly, as Denis said, we don't want to start talking about salaries and this type of thing. I believe the government, be it federal...the provinces are involved to some degree in all our sports, in whatever kind of role, not necessarily financial...but making sure our athletes.... I think our athletes in the last number of years in many cases have gone wanting because of the lack of government support in one way or the other, certainly in recognition. I think that has hurt a lot of our people.

There are a lot of sports commissions across the country I would like to see come before us. I would like to see them from all the sports to make presentations if we have the time to do it, and I'm sure we will. I think there are a lot of ideas out there that need to be debated amongst ourselves and with the people involved in it.

As I said earlier this afternoon, before we started the meeting, horse racing, which is a big industry in Canada and which employs over 150,000 people, is in serious trouble because of things that happen as we go along in society, with changes to gambling regulations and other things like this. It has hurt the racing industry. Whether it can renew itself, I don't know, but that's an industry I'd like to hear from around this table.

The big issue at present is whether we are going to lose more of the NHL hockey teams from this country. Probably we are, because of the big centres in the United States, which have the numbers. They can sell their sweaters and caps, and this kind of marketability gives them a bigger market.

Those are things I would like to hear from these people. I certainly look forward to sitting on this committee. I've been around the sports business all my life. I never was a professional by any stretch of the imagination, but I've participated in many sports and think it's a very important part of our culture and of our community.

The Chairman: Charlie.

Mr. Charlie Power (St. John's West, PC): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm Charlie Power, from St. John's West, representing Peter MacKay, who is going to be our permanent member on this committee.

It's just the opposite of Quebec; the only sports we have in Newfoundland are probably religion and politics.

We do have a professional hockey team. The St. John's Maple Leafs are there. We used to have horse racing, harness racing, which I think has died a rather slow death over the years.

As you get out to the periphery of Canada you're going to find less emphasis on professional sport and more emphasis on amateur sport, for sure. Obviously in your study in your committee there will be a vast amount of things you can look at. Certainly in the last few years it has seemed that amateur sport development has downsized from the federal government to the provincial government in cutbacks. Provincial government downsizes to cities and towns, and cities and towns downsize to their organizational bodies. Whether it's minor hockey or minor soccer, it puts a tremendous burden on those organizations to fund-raise.

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It has significantly reduced competition and travel within the country. From Newfoundland's point of view, it's very difficult now for any of our amateur teams to be able to travel around the country, which I think hurts national unity. It doesn't give our young people a chance to travel once those subsidies get reduced. It is just an unfortunate part of modern times.

In Newfoundland—and I suspect even in your provinces, in P.E.I., for sure—the member's office continually gets called to donate, to contribute in some fashion, to all these little local championships that are now invited to national championships and very often cannot attend.

So those kinds of things are there, but from Newfoundland's point of view—and Peter may bring a different perspective from Nova Scotia—certainly an emphasis on amateur sport, how to develop it, how to encourage players to stay involved at all levels....

The other part of it is that a tremendous economic activity is generated from sport, whether it's hockey or whether it's golf now in Newfoundland, where there are five or six new golf courses that are just going crazy.

I do a lot of hunting and sport fishing. It may not fit the real definition of sport in some of our minds, but the money you spend on it is tremendous and it does stimulate the economy significantly.

So I think government subsidies for sport would be accepted much better by the public if there was some understanding of what it really contributes to the economy and the fact that it's not just a sinkhole for someone to play their favourite game but actually generates a lot of activity.

I'm sure Peter will have something to add to the committee, We'll just participate in any way we can.

The Chairman: On the point you raised about teams from Newfoundland being disadvantaged because of the travel factor, the cost in travel, would you be able to find someone from your province who has done a little bit of analysis on that and could point it out? You touched on it in terms of national unity. That almost creates an isolationist environment there. It seems to me that if we don't address that imbalance of opportunity, especially at the amateur level, then you're never going to have a premier athletic system, because your premier athletes are going to be forced to leave home in order to get to the next level.

Mr. Charlie Power: That happens now in Newfoundland. If you're 12 or 13 years of age and you really want to play hockey.... We have four or five now who have just been drafted into the NHL. They couldn't have done it until they left home. Simply, the competition is not there; the coaching is not there. Premier athletes will have to leave Newfoundland to get the competition and coaching that are required.

The other side of it is that obviously sport, as we all know, is not designed simply to create premier athletes. Hockey serves a great function besides supplying players to the NHL. It has a tremendous benefit to all the participants. It gets a lot of young boys, in particular, through the high school years, when times are pretty tough, and keeps them out of mischief and keeps them busy.

The Chairman: That's what I was referring to.

Mr. Charlie Power: So in the amateur sports out there, I'm sure our sports-governing bodies could give you many examples of where we've had teams that won divisions and championships within Newfoundland but were unable to participate in national championships. This is because they may be held in Vancouver, Victoria, or some part of northern Ontario. For softball, soccer and other sports we're good at, it is still pretty expensive to take a team of 18 or 20 people on short notice.

Just keep in mind that amateur sport has a value above and beyond development of professionals.

The Chairman: Absolutely. Full persons.

Mr. Charlie Power: I think we all know that.

Mr. Denis Coderre: There are two other questions we should ask ourselves.

First, we should take it as amateur itself. Even the kids now can't afford to suit themselves. If you want to play hockey, if you are a goal-tender, it's crazy—it costs a lot. That's the first thing.

The second thing is, if for example we bring all the tools.... The government says, okay, we're going to pay through federation. We'll try to find a kind of péréquation. Are the kids still interested in participating?

In Montreal north, where my riding is—I've been there for the past 25 years—I remember when I played baseball about 15 years ago. We had about 20 teams. It was divided into five or six divisions and we had a lot of people participating.

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Now the city itself is participating and investing a lot of money in recreational sports, but we don't have the kids. We have a problem because a couple of years later they made a choice. They called it “intercité”, and said they were going to gather just a bunch of the best and the others were left out. That was the first problem.

The second problem is that the values of the families themselves are not the same. We have other kinds of social problems and we have a lot of what we call “des familles reconstituées”. The mother is taking care of two kids and doesn't necessarily have the time to bring them to arenas. So we have to find a way to support the family but we also have to bring the kids back to participate in sports. That's the first level.

On the second level you have kids who want to participate but don't have the right tools because they can't afford them. They can't afford to buy equipment or participate fully. That's another problem. If you are very good, like Myriam Bédard or other athletes, it has nothing to do with the sport itself. The problem now is we feel we have left the kids alone and aren't putting money in the right places. We have let the kids go and we don't know how to bring them back.

So we can also talk about the marketing approach. Sometimes the role of governments is to not only put money where the mouth is but to also make sure we create the environment so kids will have fun again.

Another topic I'd like to discuss is the role of the parents. You've been to arenas and seen parents fighting among themselves when the kids playing are only seven years old. It's crazy. What kind of sports do we want? What kind of approach and environment do we want? Do we want to be creative and make them participate? It's so crazy now to think about the millions a future athlete might earn, and the kids don't have fun any more.

I spoke to a couple of parents when we decided to build the committee. It was interesting; when I asked them what they thought, they said it was about time we discussed those issues, because right now they felt the kids weren't having fun any more.

So we might have a moral issue in that committee. We don't want to preach anything, but maybe we should focus on what sports should be. I think that's the cultural approach we have to look into.

The Chairman: That's a good insight.

George.

Mr. George Proud: You see organizations today putting more emphasis on house leagues rather than on the trip teams. That has come about as a result of what Denis just talked about—a lot of the kids had quit.

I know where I come from, I've had three boys in hockey, and now I have two grandsons. One fellow would make the AA team and the other fellow wouldn't. Well, that's quite a competition in my own house.

But you have to have a place for the good guys. You don't want to keep them tied up. I also believe the emphasis on the house league teams is just as important to the young man or woman who's trying to have a good time.

We all know that parents are as big a problem as the kids a lot of the time. There has to be some way to make the kids feel important. I guess that's what you're saying. They have to have a good time at it.

I'll just give you an example. We have a chap in Charlottetown who used to play hockey with Boston, Detroit, Chicago, and all the guys. He was one of the tough guys back in the fifties and sixties. He has a training camp every fall for 50 to 70 kids. When the general manager asked him when he was going to start cutting some of the guys, he said, “When everybody's had a chance to play”. He said he'd hung around that rink all his life and never got a chance to play, but every one of these guys was going to get a chance to play. They may not make it, but they were going to get a chance to play.

I think that's the type of individual you need in the organizations.

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The Chairman: Just sort of musing about this notion of linking sport to job creation, people say, well, this is a frivolous kind of thing, but I don't believe Canadians by and large have a clue—I certainly don't—about much money we've invested in infrastructure in this country for community centres and arenas, etc.

About two years ago I called the Federation of Canadian Municipalities and asked if they could give us an inventory of all the arenas that exist throughout the country in terms of the number of people who work at these facilities, and budgets and so on. They said they'd never done that before, so they didn't know.

Mr. George Proud: It's time to start.

The Chairman: If you go to Stats Canada, you don't have a clear categorization of sports apparel manufacturers. One of the things that has great export potential is those areas where we do have a unique manufacturing capacity. There may be times when these people should be linked to the number of jobs they've created so that if they're on the verge of being bought out, or shut down, or moved south or offshore, we may decide that some of these industries are important to support through a transition period, in whatever communities they come from.

So I hope the committee will be supportive of our getting information in here on what our physical plant inventory is in Canada and the number of jobs related to it, and the number of sporting goods manufacturers and the number of jobs related to it, and the number of exports related to that.

I think it should be done by province. I mean, where is this stuff being made? We don't know.

Mr. George Proud: Take golf, for one—the golf courses, the infrastructure, that's there now in our part of the country.

Mr. Charlie Power: I don't want to compound your quorum problem, but today is my duty day. I thought we were going to select a chairman today. But I presume that's for another day.

The Clerk of the Committee: The chair is already included in the order of reference.

I wonder, Mr. Chair, if you want to focus the conversation as to how you intend to approach these topics in terms of sequential steps, in terms of witnesses, in terms of themes. How do you intend to get from point A to point B to point C, considering June 30? You take a month for writing, adopting, and that brings you to May. By May, you should have a report. How do you intend to proceed?

The Chairman: I throw this open for discussion, but first of all, we know these various associations across Canada that would be interested in preparing briefs and sending them to us. Obviously we can't have them all. The committee would decide from those briefs what witnesses we would take. If the committee is basically supportive of that, then maybe we should begin a focus or create a list. We could pull out a list from Sport Canada about some of the various associations there.

Mr. Finn Poschmann (Committee Researcher): Are you thinking about the amateur sports associations?

The Chairman: Yes, absolutely. For sure, right off the top, we want to start with the amateur associations so that there is no doubt in anyone's mind that this is a committee that's starting from the grassroots up, and that we're not here to put a focus on professional sport.

The Clerk: May I suggest that if you're going to do that, then you should have a list of questions or at least specific items we can send to them. This is excellent, but I think you need something a bit more precise than that.

The Chairman: Absolutely.

The Clerk: That could be the subject of your next meeting. You could have the list approved and your list of questions approved, if the researchers are capable of doing that in one week.

Mr. Finn Poschmann: I was mulling over what those questions would be, because we have to figure out what they're going to be from the committee's point of view as well. In other words, we have a lot of things to talk about, but of course in order to set an array of meetings, there are questions that have to be in your mind.

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Mr. Denis Coderre: Should we have a steering committee?

The Chairman: I don't think that's necessary. I think we're proficient enough here that we can decide among ourselves. Then Finn can put some stuff together for us.

Mr. Finn Poschmann: Maybe you should tell me. I heard what you said so far, so I can extract a few questions from that. But if there are other things that you have in mind, then—

Mr. Denis Coderre: I might have something else.

The Chairman: Go ahead, this is an open discussion.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Let's talk about national unity. One of the main problems in the past, from the Quebec point of view at least, is that they were not treated fairly by their federations.

The Chairman: Yes. The national federations.

Mr. Denis Coderre: That's it. We might open a can of worms, but the best way to make sure things happen is sometimes to open it.

The Chairman: Suzanne mentioned that. We said we would do that.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Okay. I think it's a must, and I'll be supportive of that.

We should ask them questions and even have witnesses on both sides so they can explain to us why that one is better—

The Chairman: I think that's something we would put to the witnesses. When they prepare their briefs or when we invite the ones we choose to come, we should give them a heads-up that we will be asking them how they decide the—

Mr. Finn Poschmann: Are we talking about the criteria for supporting training, in other words, the athletes—

Mr. Denis Coderre: You have those kinds of criteria, but when they built the Olympic teams, we had some examples, especially in swimming, of good people from Quebec who were left out. Tennis is another example. Skiing is another example we can discuss.

The Chairman: There's sensitization and making sure, presuming the athletic quality is there, that there's national representation, not just one or two regions. We had a couple of incidents—

Mr. Finn Poschmann: I'm just thinking. For example, in swimming, there are pretty tight rules for what criteria you have to meet to make the Olympic team.

The Chairman: We'll have them explain it.

Mr. Denis Coderre: The best way to understand things sometimes is to communicate them. If we have all those criteria and this is public, then they have to explain them. When we realize there's no décision arbitraire, then that's it.

The Chairman: Exactly. I know the president of the Canadian Hockey League is looking forward to the time when he can say this is how we choose our athletes and this is how we are regionally sensitive.

Mr. Denis Coderre: I want to see Dave King here. I want to ask him why the hell we didn't have some good hockey players from Quebec on Canada's national team.

Mr. George Proud: Any guy who's honest will tell you that it depends on who you are in a lot of cases—

Mr. Denis Coderre: And who you know.

Mr. George Proud: —and who you know.

The Clerk: Mr. Chairman, from what I'm hearing, I suggest that what we need to do is identify the key themes. Then, from those themes, we should identify the questions. From the questions, we identify the associations and the witnesses.

Therefore, next week you should be perhaps looking not at questions, but perhaps at the themes. This is so you have the right themes. From the themes will flow your questions.

The Chairman: Okay.

Mr. Denis Coderre: I have a point of information. It's going to be very easy to turn that committee to hockey.

The Chairman: We're going to resist that temptation aggressively.

Mr. Denis Coderre: I agree with you. We have to say that part of it will be hockey, but the other part will be whatever.

A voice: Boxing.

The Chairman: As well, it's very important for us to bring in these sporting goods manufacturers. Aside from the various sports themselves, I think we have to put the notice out to the people who are involved in sporting goods manufacturing.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Do we also want the pros? CBC just signed a big contract with Labatt. In hockey, we're talking about $300 million.

The Chairman: I think we have to ask the CBC, not at the professional level, about their contribution to sport in Canada. There are a lot of people who feel that the CBC is really not stepping up to the plate to promote sport in Canada. That's part of their mandate.

Mr. Denis Coderre: We didn't have the Grey Cup at Radio-Canada.

The Chairman: I think we should ask how they view their role as part of the legislation and what various things they're doing to build and promote sport in Canada especially at the amateur level.

Mr. Finn Poschmann: To follow up on what Normand was saying, yes, we need a theme that brings this in. In other words, what route do we take that brings us over here, and brings us over there?

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The Clerk: You're looking at about a month before you can start having hearings, I would think. You need a week for your themes and a week for your questions. The third week, you can have the departmental officials.

We can line them up now, Mr. Chair, in fact. After that, you can start with your hearings.

The Chairman: I think we would like to get to those departmental officials as soon as we could, just to get an overall departmental briefing.

Now, I think the heritage committee is going to have the sports officials in front of them. Am I right?

The Clerk: No. We were, but now that the subcommittee has been struck, I think this is where it's going to go. We have Hedy Fry, Parks, and the main estimates.

The Chairman: Do you think it would be possible that next week we could get a background briefing from the department?

The Clerk: Yes, if they're available.

The Chairman: There's no point here in reinventing wheels. In other words, they're going to give us some insights, some thoughts and some road maps that might be very useful as we refine our focus.

The Clerk: Am I hearing you say it's some sort of status of sports in Canada—

The Chairman: Yes, from the—

The Clerk: —including everything they have, including from the Olympics?

Mr. Denis Coderre: I spoke about the industry itself. There's your idea of an inventory, and the impact of the money spent. That will be very important to discuss. We need one meeting to discuss just that.

The Clerk: I wonder if the researchers—and I'm simply asking the question—could have for the department at least a few pointers, because otherwise it's very broad.

Mr. Finn Poschmann: Yes. I'll have to talk to them tomorrow.

The Clerk: All right.

Mr. Denis Coderre: The problem with that kind of committee is that you can talk about a lot of things and go way off-topic.

The Chairman: Exactly. That's going to be our challenge, to keep our focus. But I think it's very important that every brief—

Mr. Denis Coderre: We have to focus.

The Chairman: —has to have a special emphasis—and this goes back to your point—on the linkage to job creation, the linkage to the economy. One of the things we've never done with sport is that we've never given it....

I believe that the way things happen around here is that if you can make your case based on the economic linkages, you have a much better day in court for your cause. Every other sector of the economy around here, when they come for a pre-budget hearing, whether it's book publishing or whatever it is, have always linked their hopes for policy amendment or regulation, whatever it is, based on their economic impact, by and large.

Sure there are cultural underpinnings and everything else. It's very important that all of these people be sensitized to that. Even the volunteer capacity that is involved especially in amateur sport across Canada is a tremendous number. I think they should identify it and see if they can't quantify what it would mean if we didn't have those volunteers.

The Clerk: I'm simply clarifying so that I understand the process and can see which is the best way to go. You have two choices, as far as I can understand. You can have sports officials next week, if they are available. That's a big “if”, because it is very difficult to get Heritage Canada. Or you can determine your themes and some of your questions. That will then give you time to schedule them. Then try the themes on them to see if we have all of the themes. Do we have some missing? Can you fill it in there or not? That may make it a bit more focused than a broad spectrum.

Mr. Denis Coderre: We have to build a frame.

The Clerk: Yes. It would give the researchers a bit more time to build a frame and a bit more time to organize ourselves. It's obviously your choice. I'm just repeating what I heard.

The Chairman: We have no problem with that. But you should give the officials a heads-up that two weeks from now we would like them to be with us.

The Clerk: Yes.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Now, if I may say, we want an impact from that committee, which means, you know, we don't want to discuss...we have to find out...we have that subject, it's a subcommittee of industry, blah, blah, blah.

When we discuss it amongst anybody, their first reaction is salaries, and they say they don't want to hear about that, but if we take the approach of, “What's the situation of sports in Canada?” at the start, then we can have the economic approach, the cultural approach, etc.

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The Chairman: Well, the cultural component is going to be an automatic discussion, because that essentially has been the traditional emphasis in sport. We're going to have to motivate some of these groups to really—

Mr. Denis Coderre: Imagine you're a reporter. What's your lead? The lead is, “I want to look at the situation in sports right now”. Is that it?

The Chairman: The lead has been, and most journalists are catching on, that we want to link it to economic activity. Yes, understood, there's this cultural underpinning, which has always been a discussion, but it's to evaluate and collate. We'll never get all of it, but we want to get enough of it to realize that, my goodness, this is a multibillion-dollar industry with I don't know how many jobs involved, and if all of a sudden we're starting to see, even at the amateur level, people staying at home, teams folding, manufacturers going south, then we might say, “Hey, this thing is falling apart in front of us. Do we really want that to happen?” And ultimately that will lead to some tough recommendations.

Mr. Denis Coderre: No wonder we lost the Jets.

The Chairman: Why did we lose the plant from Saint-Hyacinthe, CCM? It's gone to the States. Why did we lose the plant from Sainte-Thérèse, the Bauer plant? It went south when Nike took it over.

An hon. member: It's gone, period.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Why should it be the role of government to prevent that?

The Chairman: People look at sport and say, oh, it's just a bunch of people making a few hockey sticks and skates, and it's only 50 jobs. But all of a sudden we start to see this thing could be a very powerful industry, because as this business of sport is growing in the States, that's a heck of a market. Rather than just give it away, maybe we should figure out ways to encourage our people to attack that market and be more progressive.

Mr. Denis Coderre: I don't know if this has been done before, but may I suggest that we also invite some sports reporters, people such as Réjean Tremblay?

The Chairman: I have concerns over that, and I'll tell you why. There are thousands of sports reporters in Canada, when you include radio, TV, and print. If we give preference to anyone.... We should be very cautious there. I think we should just deal with....

Mr. Denis Coderre: Oh, okay.

The Clerk: From a more practical point of view, I believe there would be a conflict of interest for any reporter to appear in front of a parliamentary committee, because I've checked into that in the past. They report; they can't comment.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Okay.

The Chairman: If we can move this away from the perceived notion that this is about helping rich hockey players and get it into the infrastructure, the amateur level, the linkage of family affordability, etc., then the sports community, and just in general, the journalists who are interested in public policy, are going to be intrigued.

Mr. Denis Coderre: My question was, if we try to define what's an expert in sports, obviously you have in hockey, from the Gazette, Red Fisher, who knows everything—he's been there for the last 30 or 35 years. But I agree with the clerk. I understand the point of view. If we want some experts—

The Chairman: I think they're going to make their expertise known through their own columns.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Okay.

Mr. Finn Poschmann: I just want to make sure we have something to work with and that I can come back with some themes, which is vital, and some questions for next week and get them approved. That's the nice timing so we don't run off in all directions on this.

The Chairman: Right. It will be a challenge to keep a focus. I realize that.

There's one other thing that is very important, and I want to go back to Suzanne Tremblay. She mentioned two issues.

Number one—and Denis mentioned it as well—is the whole notion of the inner circle. This isn't going to be a centrepiece, but we can't run away from it. It's the issue of Team Canada's construction: How does it become a national unit? What are the criteria? I don't want to put it right in the front window, because we don't want to interfere with how teams are managed or run or whatever, but I just want to flag the fact that it's a concern of hers.

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The second concern of hers, which Denis mentioned as well—and it touches especially our disadvantaged regions—is the whole issue of affordability. Even in a major market such as Toronto right now, as the downsizing continues, you have private sector organizations taking over, and they're interested in profit more than they are in community-building. The cost of some of our sports in a major market such as Toronto, because of land costs and all the other costs now, is becoming so prohibitive for families. So when we're sending out letters to those organizations that are managing amateur things in major markets, they should be asked to deal with the whole notion of how they maintain family affordability when they're running their organization, whatever sport it is.

Mr. Denis Coderre: We don't have quorum today. I was just wondering if we can replace members if they're not here, because it's a very important issue.

The Chairman: Yes, we can. We have a lot of members who want to be on this committee.

Mr. Denis Coderre: We have to do something.

The Chairman: Yes. We'll raise it. Pat O'Brien had a personal family crisis that he had to look after. We have to get to Suzanne Tremblay, because she didn't make us aware until Friday that Monday evening is a bad time for her.

Did she tell you this?

The Clerk: No.

Mr. George Proud: I'll be out for the rest of this week and next week, so I'll get somebody.

The Chairman: Okay, good.

Mr. George Proud: Plus I'll send somebody from my office, like a staff member.

The Chairman: So that's it. Thank you.

Mr. George Proud: My staff can sit in, though?

The Chairman: Yes, just let Vivaldo know and he'll call another member.

The meeting is adjourned.